It's been nearly 6 months and still no eggs

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Margaid

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I'm hoping someone can give me some advice about my Welsummers. I've had them for a year and they were supposed to be the previous years' hatch. I was getting about 9 eggs a week from 4 hens until they moulted. They hadn't started laying again by October 17th when two fox hounds attacked the flock, killing several birds. One of my birds just disappeared - no feathers or corpse.

Just over two weeks ago the last two were brought here and introduced to the flock. My friend thought that one of them had started to lay again. Since they have been here I think I may have had one egg about a week ago - I have another younger hen who usually lays every other day but I had an egg on consecutive days. So I'm getting one egg every other day from 4 hens. We have had a lot of snow and it has affected the laying of one of the new Leghorns and the young Cream Legbars but I'm getting pretty fed up with these three hens eating their rations but not producing eggs.

I've almost decided that if I don't get more eggs by 17th April, breeding quality or not they will be for the chop. Am I being unreasonable or should I give them longer because of the appalling weather? Any advice from people with experience of Welsummers gratefully received.
 
My own rather hard hearted practical approach says you are not being unreasonable and while I am prepared to offer 'retirement facilities' to some oldies which have given me outstanding service as long layers and breeders, I'm not prepared to subsidise half hearted layers which should be in their prime. While you can make allowances for moves, the weather and other factors, the bottom line for me is that the hens need to be productive.
You have to make allowances for breed and Welsummers were never the most productive on egg numbers (180-200 tops) the attraction being the egg colour and perhaps the attractive, traditional look of the birds themselves.
 
Thanks Chuck. I knew they weren't prolific - one of the reasons for having four of them, and yes I like the egg colour and the cockerel. I though I'd give them the full six months before making the final decision, but then I'll have to try and establish whether any of them aren't laying - Henny's egg is different nearly every time!!

I can't afford to be sentimental and all my birds may have to go anyway, depending on how my life pans out.
 
Sounds like they are from a poor laying strain, my lone Welsummer has been laying 5 a week since late February as have most of my friends 7-8 birds. As Chuck says you should be getting about 180 eggs a year which in my books is reasonable going for a pure breed. I don't think it would hurt to give them till early May, given the weather, the fact they have been moved and the time and money you have already sunk into them. If they haven't produced the goods by then, then you know they probably never will and can get rid without wondering if you were too hasty.
 
You say they were bought as 'breeding quality' but they can only be this if they produce enough eggs for hatching if you wanted to do so! Sounds as if its the old dilemma about appearance versus the more or less guaranteed laying performance you would get with a more egg- specialised breed. Also if you've had them a year, and they were the previous years hatch, they are coming into their third season and thus are past their most prolific and not likely to improve.
On the other hand, these hens have been through a lot of changes and stressful incidents, and two weeks isn't very long for hens to settle in to new surroundings, especially as the snow has made this more difficult. I think Dinosaw's suggestion is a good one, if you are not so fed up with them that you really feel you want out. If you do come to the point where you need t reduce the flock, well at least you'll know where to start.
 
It's not difficult to tell which are in lay. The general look and feel of body and comb but mostly the width between the bones around the vent area. If these two bones are close together, they are not laying and in those that are, you should be able to get two fingers or more between the bones. Also around that area, you feel a fullness/floppiness rather than shrunken when not i lay. It's sometimes advised to do this in the dark and it does help (no other distractions). This does not give any indications for future performance, just tells you what is in lay now.
 
Marigold they were judged as breeder quality by two Poultry Club of Great Britain judges who were at the auction. They were bought last April so should have just started their first laying season as I understood it at the time. The Oswestry Rare Breed Poultry Auctions are quite strict about what birds they will accept.

I'm most concerned about the effects of the fox hound attack - I think Chris mentioned somewhere that it took six months for some hens to recover from that sort of fright. Having said that, all my friend's birds(mainly Houdans) that were involved in the same attack have started laying again although admittedly only in the last week - which rather negates the effect of the weather. The two that were moved seem to spend more time in the hen house than the others, including the leghorns which I've had for 6 weeks and the Cream Legbars I've had for 2 1/2 weeks. For the smaller, younger birds in each case one is smaller than the other and I think has stopped laying - both Leghorns were laying before the snow although one was every other day. I'm sure only the larger of the legbars is laying at the moment.

I also have concerns that, like bees, they are picking up my mood. Chris says above that they don't sound particularly happy at the moment - well I'm not either and that isn't going to change in the foreseeable future except maybe get worse. I'm trying not to feel that struggling to keep their welfare standards up is a b***** nuisance at the moment but they are certainly a responsibility I could do without right now, particularly as in the egg department they re not very rewarding. If somehow they are sensing this there isn't much I can do about it.

If I get more than one dark brown egg I'll try and check them as you suggest Chuck but I'm not good at handling them and unfortunately neither is my friend although she's kept hens for years. What is the best way to hold them to do this? When we moved them all into the new house my friend just tended to grab them by the legs but I've been trying to carry them on my forearm as I've found they are calmer like that. Can I examine them properly like that or is there a better way?

Thanks for all your support and advice.
 
Having posted that I went to have a look at the them and could see that only two of the Welsummers were outside - Henny and Pink hen. I think one of them came out while I was checking the nest boxes and there was a still warm brown egg in one of them.It is a different shape from the one I collected on Saturday which would have been Henny's. Assuming that the hen still in the house clucking madly had laid it, I know which of them it was as she has a bigger comb than the other. Henny should lay again today, so if I get another this afternoon it will definitely mean one of the other's is laying. We had intended to ring them last Saturday so I can tell them apart easily but were defeated by the snow.

I'm sure having spent several days inside the house when it was snowing won't have helped. I have some fence panels with which to make them a sheltered area but there is still snow on the ground and what is uncovered is waterlogged with snow melt.
 
I think grabbing chickens by the legs, especially if they are of laying age can be a dangerous thing to do. If you misjudge it and there is an egg due to be laid it could become broken inside and lead to peritonitis

By far the easiest way of handling and checking any bird, is to go up quietly, after dark when they are asleep in their house, and quietly and calmly remove each one in turn, speaking soothingly to them, so they know it is their handler not some marauding predator

As I am sure has been mentioned already it is a simple matter to check between the "pin bones" just below the tail (anyone who has cooked a whole chicken will be aware of where these are). If these bones are very close together you have a none laying bird, if there is enough space for 2 or 3 fingers between them then the hen is producing eggs. At the same time check the breast area to see that they are not too thin and if you take a strong torch with you a check for redmite would be a good idea. Redmite or any type of mite will severely reduce the egg laying ability of any bird.

Most traditional breeds will not produce an egg per bird per day so if you are getting some eggs they may be from a variety of your birds

This cold weather with bitter winds will reduce any free range birds desire to lay, especially as you have mentioned how high your property is the wind chill factor must be quite strong, and no birds like drafts of any type. Chickens are woodland floor creatures with all than implies in the way of shelter, and insect life, probably none of which your birds are currently enjoying

The judges mention of breeder quality, may have simply meant that the birds were of sufficient merit that you could have bred something of show standard from them, and probably wouldn't imply anything regarding their laying abilities, and no bird appreciates being shifted about to different places, we all know how stressful it is when we move home and need to settle in with new surrounding and new neighbours, never mind about if we had to actually move in with them

This Easter is particularly cold and late, normally my garden is ablaze with thousands of daffodils by now, with the early ones always out by Mothering Sunday, whereas this year, the Mothering Sunday ones are only just showing their heads now.

Try to let your birds settle without too much more changing around of houses and housemates, wait for the spring to arrive, make sure they are getting suitable rations and enough clean water, preferably not icy, as the birds do not like to drink much water if it is too hot or too cold, and the lower the water consumption the fewer the eggs.

The best egg producers for first time poultry keepers are often ones like the Warren types as they are bred to be placid, accepting egg producers, the traditional breeds will always need a little more attention to detail which is why the modern hybrids were produced

If all this sound complicated maybe it would be worthwhile taking one of the "one day chicken keeper courses" which seem to be on offer at various places.
 
Egg numbers can be very misleading and if a hen lays 180 a year, that's one every other day, take out at least 6 weeks when the hen will be in a moult and 180 should give you 3-4 eggs a week per hen. Almost certainly the birds you bought will have been judged on their breed type i.e. their looks, rather than laying ability and most judges cannot assess utility potential. In fact the only way to judge laying ability is too record the eggs laid. The Poultry Club is not renowned for it's interest or it's ability in regard to utility fowl !
We seem all to be in agreement that that the unusual circumstances that your hens have faced, not the least this cold weather and biting winds following on from the milder wet weather has had a big effect. If you could relax into thinking that you are doing everything possible for them you could enjoy them, even though they may not be living up to your expectations. I don't remember a leaner time for egg production, ever and this has been over a three month period.
I have never found that traditional breeds which have kept their utility foundation are in any way more needy than hybrids but there is no doubt that the show people have lost sight of utility in pursuit of the perfect looking specimen.
 
Thanks Darkbrowneggs. I've never liked the idea of grabbing a chicken by it's legs which is why I try to pick them up gently. Even when my friend has caught the bird for me I've quickly put it on my forearm. I'll have to look at some photos of chicken anatomy to make sure I don't poke them in the wrong place!

Redmite shouldn't be a problem as we've always been very vigilant and the new house was creosoted several weeks before I moved them in.

Having three different breeds, although only the Leghorns and Welsummers are in together, even I can tell which egg is which. I have just taken out their mealworms and one of your Cream Legbars has laid an egg. The site is not as sheltered as my friend's even though she is higher up - I had to find the least wet area whereas I would like them to have had some shelter. That's why I want to build a sheltered run for them.

At the moment I have my own problems though as the bulk gas tank has just run out and they can't deliver any gas until sometime tomorrow. There is a way of switching the caravan back over to bottled gas but there's nothing coming through; there may be something else I need to do but OH isn't answering his mobile. At least the hens can cuddle up together if they're cold.

I think the judges were probably going by the breed standard Chuck as some of the birds at the auction were marked as "Exhibition quality". I bought the cockerel later because (a) I liked the look of the Welsummer cockerel and (b) as my hens were apparently good examples I though I might in time raise some chicks. That plan has gone out of the window anyway. I do worry that I may not be doing all I could for them, especially as I am somewhat distracted at the moment. It's very reasurring to know that even the experienced poultry keepers are finding it lean.
 
Grabbing a chicken by the legs, which they want to stay firmly planted on the ground, is a disaster Margaid. I find picking them up (and a show judge showed us how to do it) and putting them back on the ground as many times as it takes, works to settle them. Within minutes any bird I handle can be held in one hand and fussed under the 'chin'. Hand slides under the chest and feet are held between extreme fingers, so two fingers apart. Yes, easy to say and the way you catch them is important. Never grab them, just deflect them around until they are disorientated, then pick them up. NEVER use a net!
 
Yes I hold them with the hand slid under the chest and fingers round the legs - I did once have to use a net when Henny had escaped from the transit box when I first brought her home. Have a look at the thread Boy did I get that all wrong. I didn't want to do it but had no choice as she was running around a 3 acre field with no idea where the house was. As soon as I picked her up, holding her round the body to stop her wings flapping, and slid her onto my arm she was completely docile and I carried her several hundred yards back to the hen house talking and stroking her all the time. The problem I think will be that Cocky will think I'm trying to steal his girls, but the hen house is big enough for me to get in and pick them up off the perch.

It's taken nearly three hours but I've managed to switch the gas supply back to the emergency bottles. That system hasn't been used for so long everything was gritty or full of cobwebs or slightly corroded and the threads are left hand.... I'm not best pleased with Calor as the telemetry system should have avoided this, the tank should be refilled when it drops to 25%. Their system is too cumbersome - we used to have problems when mother-in-law was alive because of the delays that arise if they can't deliver on the first telemetry warning. May well be looking for a different gas supplier!

Despite the snow and cold winds the hens are still out!
 
Your hens have been through a lot Margaid & you have only had your new ones 2? weeks? This will also have unsettled them. My welsummer laid about 10 eggs & is now broody :lol: :lol:
 
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