Flock management

She's a Bluebelle, which I believe is a RIR x Marans cross. I expect her lovely dark brown 'scarf' round her hackles comes from the RIR genes. I've never had one before, and had heard that they're rather shy birds, but Violet is quite different, races to greet me when I go in the run, nibbles any bits she can get at (ouch - bare toes this morning in plastic slippers!) and doesn't mind being touched. Looks like a definite bid to be Top Hen .
 
Our Bluebell was all blue Marigold and very shy, but our Copper/Blue Marans was near identical to Violet and a very forward little girl. Of course the French breed standard is with feathered feet. See if you get brown eggs?
 
It's long been a mystery to me why a zillion websites say that the Bluebell is a RIR x Maran cross. Even if the Maran in question was a Copper Splash Maran this would give blue chicks but they would not be sexable at hatching and so would not appeal to the commercial boys and girls.
And RIR x Cuckoo Maran would be sexable at hatching but none of them would be blue.
Beats me!
 
I don't know anything about them but like you, am just quoting what I've read. It does seem strange to me that crossing a deep red bird with a fairly dark blackish one would produce such a lovely laced pale grey. However, they're supposedly good layers, which is the main thing, and my Violet is evidently quite a character!
 
Misty is definitely top girl and nibbles anything in her reach, she and her departed sisters all laid pale eggs with lavender spots on, which sadly faded over a few days.
 
OK, here's another management question. My object is to eliminate any worms my new hybrids might have brought in, as far as possible, to get them off to a good start, and then to manage the environment so worms never come back.
They had been living in a large barn on deep straw with dozens of others the same age and of mixed breeds. The drinkers and feeders looked clean but of course the floor was fairly dirty, unavoidable. They had been treated with Vermex on the first 3 days of each month and hadn't come into contact with any older birds, though I expect there may possibly have been worm eggs in the floor of the barn They are now in a completely clean run, with a new membrane over the floor, covered with fresh Aubiose, so no possibility of scratching up and eating earthworms etc. All surfaces and equipment have been jet washed and disinfected, the run is roofed and the mesh is too small to let in wild birds or vermin. The day they arrived I started them on Flubenvet, in a 500g. warm mash of mixed pellets, sunflower seeds, corn and mealworms, and observed all of them eating it greedily and cleaning the plate. They have normal pellets when they've finished the mash. They're now on Day 3 of the Flubenvet and I'm going in several times a day to poo pick thoroughly. All poos look normal today, though there were more caecal poos yesterday than usual, perhaps because they were settling in.
Do you reckon that they will be worm-free at the end of the week? Or what about if I treat them again in 3 weeks' time? If they could become worm-free, and live in a run with no chance of picking up any worm eggs, would they ever need worming again?
 
In theory the run should be worm free but I don't know if eggs survive for long periods outside. We don't worm ours now unless there is a potential problem indicated by their poos. As I may have mentioned before, we worm with Olive Oil and Flubenvet 'shots' only on days 1 & 2 and again on day 7 to kill hatched eggs- works well for us.

We have notice two types of caecal poos- foamy yellow sludge when excited but usually a brown fine smooth sludge which I think is a release of stored digestive enzyme. I say that as after Avipro treatment they do it a lot.
 
My own take on it, in addition to anyone else's, is that free worm eggs degrade very quickly when outside the host - chicken, mollusc, earthworm etc. When counting them they are desiccating, degrading and broken in a sample just a day or two old. Exposed they last only minutes. But that is enough to be passed around, of course, in droppings or in worms or snails.
Egg counts drop to zero a few days after a week of flubenvet. I have assumed that this is because the worms have been killed and it takes a while for the eggs released as they break up to work their way out. Whether those eggs are viable? I suspect they will have been damaged by the flubenvet and not viable but don't know for certain.
As we all know, common chicken worms are so prolific in the environment that excluding them completely and permanently would require commercial unit style bio security. But it is also about the rise in worm population.
A chicken can have low counts of eggs in poop for several months and be pooping normally, fit and well. But then if they are re-ingesting eggs from several birds or eating earthworms or snails (or generally pecking around outside) the population can rise suddenly and become a problem (usually quite a serious problem by the time there are and outward signs)
So I think you could extend the time between needing to worm by a lot with reasonable precautions but it would take extreme measures to keep them out permanently.
 
I agree with all you say, Rick - but am still wondering whether, if my chickens are kept in a worm-free enclosed run and don't peck around outside, eating earthworms snails etc, where would the worm eggs come from if the chickens didn't have any to start with?
I'm not paranoid about worms, and this query is largely hypothetical, but it might be an interesting experiment if I gave them a second dose of flubenvet in 3 weeks time to deal with any emergent worms, and then got them tested at 6 months and 12 months without further treatment.
 
If they don't get any access to open soil, worms and snails then they could go a very long time with no worm population at all. I wonder, if there is any value to the natural worm remedies then discouraging and prolonging the time before an exponential population rise may be it (along with minimising exposure.)
If you send off for testing I would make up the minimum 4 grams of sample (you would probably be sending at least twice that) from a few (just a couple in a flock of 5) separate poops but being careful not to crush the sample when collecting or in transit. Worm eggs are so fragile and a broken egg wont float and show up in the count.

... the best sample is a classic, semi- firm poop. An inbuilt problem with testing is you need to do it when the worm population is low or at most moderate. Runny poops are a bad sample and (even though that may be because the population is high and having an effect) will be unlikely to give a representative result, if any. Its not something you can do when you already think you may have a problem.
 
Thank you Rick, I'll return for more advice a few months hence.
Poo picking the coop yesterday and this morning, Days 3-4 of Flubenvet, I noticed that quite a few of the droppings appear to have reddish worms in them, so it seems that it's really worth while treating new pullets as soon as they arrive. So much for their previous alleged 3-days-a-month regime of Vermex! Also easier if it's a totally new, all-out-all-in batch, so no cross-contamination, infection or infestation from older birds, following a thorough clean up. And all is peaceful, everybody eating well, no stress from the presence of dominant older bullies, either for the pullets or for me. All this must help them to settle in and make the most of a month's growing time before they start to lay. I'm hoping these 5 will give us enough eggs for the next 3-4 years, and then I shall think whether to do the same next time.
 
Great to see you posting about your own hens again Marigold; they look a nice bunch.
I know of one poultry keeper who put Apple Cider Vinegar in the chicks water from day one so they were used to it. He grew on his cocks birds and then slaughtered them for meat and always made a careful examination of the gut looking for signs of worms/eggs and never found any signs. Bearing in mind I unfortunately didn't have hens for very long, mine were always happy to drink water with ACV in it going by the level in the drinkers. They probably also drank elsewhere as they free ranged until the mink attack but in any case with 100 metres of electric netting, if my maths is correct their enclosure was nearly 800 sq metres. I used to follow the debates about worming with great interest and would think that where birds are raised free range on a site used extensively/continuously for rearing there would be a greater chance of infestation. The $64,000 question seems to be how long the eggs are viable in the open or in the ground ...
 
All this talk of worms has got me wondering if buying hens in is the right way for us, as they may arrive with worms and infect the land. The land hasn't had any livestock on it for at least 20 years and gets incredibly hot in Summer, so nothing should have survived there at the moment, but when we provide shade and soil baths all that may change? We have all the space, equipment and knowledge to hatch or buy-in day olds and if we are going to ultimately slaughter the hens we could do the same with the cockerels for the table?

We've had 4 TNN's truly free ranging, so no physical boundaries, for the last 6 months and they show no signs of a worm burden. They stay within 30 metres of their coop, so cover about 3000m2 but rarely are they further than 10 metres from a dash to cover from aerial predators. They are eating a lot of food now, whereas they didn't when they arrived, which leads me to think that just the four of them have nearly exhausted the natural food supply- although that may change as the weather improves.
 
A lot of food for thought there Chris - oops, sorry about the ghastly pun!

Sounds as though hatching or buying day olds could be the answer.
 
POLs are likely to arrive with some worms, so I expect you'd probably want to quarantine them, Chris, and during the first week they could be on Flubenvet, like mine, which should sort them out before they go outside. If you're going to have hens free ranging, they're going to get worms from their environment anyway, other species of birds carry them as well as chickens. So it makes sense to reduce the numbers of worm eggs deposited, by shutting them up and dealing with the problem from the start. As you have the expertise, space and equipment, why not get some POLs for eggs this summer, and also hatch or buy in some chicks for rearing on?
If you have difficulty in obtaining Flubenvet in France, you're welcome to pm me with your address and I'll send you some in the post, if this is allowed.
 
But Marigold, would you really want to keep them all cooped up, where they can't come running to you the moment you open the back door? And where they can't jump onto the wheely bin to tap on the kitchen window to get your attention? :-)09
 
Yes, definitely- I'm just as keen on the garden as I am on the chickens, and if they're let out, they scratch stones on to the lawn, which shatter when it's mowed, dangerous to people as well as the mower. They scratch up the grass and make holes in it. And my terrier would be chasing them all the time, stressful and probably fatal.
My five have a walk-in roofed run 12 metres square, screened to provide shade in summer and protection from wind and rain, with a large dustbath and several perches at different heights, including a long one looking out on to the garden, where they all sit and go to sleep companionably, or watch me gardening. It's predator-proof, and keeps out wild birds and rodents, so their food and water stays uncontaminated and their coop never gets red mite. They're fed a variety of fresh greens every day, and the worm count stays low because they don't eat earthworms. When I go in to the run they all come running (especially Violet!) and it's very pleasant to sit there, talk to them and observe them - especially if the rain is drumming on the roof and there's a cold wind outside. I've never had issues with feather pecking or aggression due to boredom from over-confinement.
I totally agree with you, that confining hens in a very small run without shelter and with nothing to do is asking for problems - it's all down to adequate space and sensible feeding, I believe.
And we keep our bins at the front of the house.
 
Having thought it through over a few glasses of wine (€1.40/ litre) we decided that hatching or buying chicks could create more problems than it solves. We could end up with almost all cockerels, which happened with our first Wyandotte hatch (1 pullet from 10), or far too many hens for the area as we got with our second hatch (10 pullets from 12). Flubenvet should be used 3 weeks after treating a severe infestation and that may be due to timing- all the eggs in the ground are dead and the new worms in the birds are too immature to produce eggs perhaps? So the plan is to treat the pullets as if they have a severe infestation. We have plenty of Flubenvet at the moment thanks Marigold -half a big tub of the 2.5% strength which is past its use-by date but is still apparently completely effective.

Quite possible the Egrets are carrying worms but at the moment they keep their distance and don't cover the areas used by the TNN's. However they are going onto the new enclosure area, so perhaps hatching and rearing would be fruitless anyway as controlling worms goes.

Unfortunately our enclosure building is taking rather a long time. The area was covered in weeds and was severely compacted. When I could finally get the rotorvator into it (wettest Winter here since 1933) it came up in clumps and will take some levelling off, by which time the ground will be too dry and hard to get posts into. So perhaps it will be next year?
 
After having no 'real' eggs since before Christmas, we had a lovely Easter Sunday breakfast, 2each at 42 grams, courtesy of little Lily Leghorn.
IMG_3312.JPG
Also final touch for refurbished run, lovely present from granddaughter. IMG_3313.JPG
Was it all worth it, going for 'all out, all in' this time?
I'm still sad about losing Nutmeg, the little CLB I'd had from a chick, and it's a difficult memory, culling her. But it has been good to make a new start, see new pullets settling in, and waiting for the eggs I wouldn't have got with the old flock. I'm hoping these will keep going for maybe 3-4 years before I have to make any more difficult decisions. They're an amazingly friendly and inquisitive bunch, no need to tame them, more a case of escaping the mob!


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Love the plaque, what a lovely gift.
It is never easy getting rid of older hens, but unless you have room to keep some old timers, it becomes a necessary evil. Well done to Lily Leghorn on providing the perfect Easter present, and Mrs G arriving to
 
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