Card fraud

[Marigold]

Living as we do, at the top of a steep hill in a small town with very few shops, I do nearly all my shopping online and get it delivered, not only groceries but practically everything else, and also do all our banking online. So far, for many years, it has been pretty trouble-free as I observe all the safety rules to keep my accounts untouched and private. However, a few days ago I got a phone call purporting to be from Mastercard, saying they had reason to believe my account had been compromised, and asking for letters from my memorable word to check my recent transactions. So of course I thought this was a scam and got quite sniffy with him, saying I would ring my provider myself to check. After some time being assured 'my call was important to them', interspersed by blasts of Vivaldi, I did get through, and the Security Dept told me that yes, someone had been doing a lot of free Christmas shopping on my card. Three purchases of over £100 from separate branches of Currys, in Lewisham, Deptford and New Cross, plus a trolley load from Sainsburys at well over £100, plus a meal at McDonald's, and £17.50 for an Uber, presumably to carry home the swag. All from South London, on a day when I hadn't left the house in Hampshire for over a week because I had a bad cold! They must have somehow got hold of my card details and physically cloned a card, this wasn't online theft where someone was just using my details to buy stuff online.

I have no idea how this could have been done. It couldn't have been ATM theft, as when I get cash out I always use my free Visa card, not my Mastercard. The card itself hadn't left my purse indoors, or had been used in a shielded handheld terminal in my presence over the counter in a local shop, and all my online purchases were on secure, reputable sites with details encrypted. Fortunately, all the missing money was repaid to my account with no fuss, so in a sense, I suppose, from the point of view of the thief, this was a victimless crime. I suppose Mastercard must have detected an unusual pattern of sudden spending in an area of the country I've not visited for many years, which is reassuring. But a bit disquieting, all the same. I just wonder how people feel, when they've got away with something like this.
Any ideas?

 

[LadyA]

My bank card was used fraudulently years ago, and my daughter's was hit twice in a month (ie, they stopped her original card, issued a replacement, and within days, that one had been compromised!). The bank said that criminals have very sophisticated number generating computer programs, which generate literally millions of possible card/security numbers, until they get a match.

It's probably wise, if you do a lot of online shopping to keep one credit card with a low credit limit - not more than maybe £1,000- for that, so at least if the card is compromised, your loss will be minimised.

PS. Just a thought - do you have an aluminium card holder to protect your cards from mobile RFID readers when you're out and about? I saw a mini documentary ages ago on how thieves can use these little unobtrusive gadgets without being noticed, and "harvest" card details from people's handbags, wallets etc!! :shock:

 

[rick]

Ive only been hit once like that but that was at a garage where I bought petrol and the staff (or one of them at least) had rigged it so the security camera could see people entering their pins. I got a call from the bank asking 'Have you been in Mumbai recently and withdrawn 20,000 rupees?' There was no question that I had and there had been a flurry of similar incidents in the area, all involving cards that had been used in that garage.
Your situation sounds odd Marigold. It seems unlikely that the person spending the money (buying shopping) harvested the card details etc to clone it. They might have bought it on the black market or been given it as payment in kind. We all end up paying the shortfall, like insurance scams, so its not really victim-less.

 

[bigyetiman]

A lot of my work colleagues had their cards hacked for want of a better word, by person or persons using a gadget, we deduced it had happened at the bus station at Lakeside luckily OH bought me one of those RFID protectors and so far all has been ok.
OH has had several e mails asking her to update her Paypal details as they were unable to process the payments for goods she has ordered. Luckily she doesn't have a Paypal account and hasn't bought anything online for ages, but it would be easy to do if you were in a rush and had ordered something.
Glad you were reimbursed marigold

 

[Marigold]

It's probably wise, if you do a lot of online shopping to keep one credit card with a low credit limit - not more than maybe £1,000- for that, so at least if the card is compromised, your loss will be minimised.

PS. Just a thought - do you have an aluminium card holder to protect your cards from mobile RFID readers when you're out and about? I saw a mini documentary ages ago on how thieves can use these little unobtrusive gadgets without being noticed, and "harvest" card details from people's handbags, wallets etc!! :shock:

Fortunately, there was no loss to me, Mastercard refunded my account in full, as there was no suggestion that I had been negligent or responsible for the thefts.
Yes, the card blocking wallets etc do work, but the risk of theft of card details is so small as to be negligible, in fact there has been no proven case of this in over 10 years. Modern card technology works in a different way from the RFID chips used some years ago, and as this article points out, there are much easier ways to acquire card data via online scamming than sitting on a street corner skimming cards as people pass by.
https://thewalletshoppe.com/rfid-blocking-really-need-hint-dont/
and https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/apr/28/do-i-need-to-buy-an-rfid-blocking-wallet
So if you're a belt and braces person, a card protection wallet is fine, but you can do just as well by cutting a piece of aluminium foil and fitting it inside your wallet.

I think possibly a lot of card details get harvested when people buy things over the phone using their card, giving their details including security number to an unknown person at the other end. I almost never do this, but I did so once, a few weeks ago, in a transaction with a reputable company that I'd dealt with several times before, when their online site had crashed and I wanted to place an urgent order for a birthday present. Now I wonder whether my details were shredded, or just written down and left lying around. Strange that this loophole doesn't seem to be highlighted in all the advice about using your card safely. I'm also very wary about the 'one click' option, where an online site stores your card details for speedier checkout next time. I think that, if they don't store the info, they can't have it hacked.

 

[Margaid]

I had a similar experience to Marigold's a few years ago in that I had an automated call about my credit card so just hung up. When we rang the provider we found that they had identified an odd expense (I'd bought a new washing machine) so were ringing me to check that it was genuine.
I've had my credit card hacked twice with on-line shopping, but both times it was the trader's database that had been hacked andd the money was refunded straight away. I don't ue nay of the mobile apps but I do check my bank and credit card accounts on-line at least every couple of days so I can quickly spot anything odd.
The main thing with all of these is not to panic if you get a call, and also if you ring your provider straight away use your mobile if you have one and they called your landline as they can hold the line and put a dialing tone on it so you think you are making a new call!

I have a case but it has all the cards I don't use often - I'll put a piece of foil in my purse Lady A - thanks for the tip.

 

[Marigold]

Getting the numbers is only the start, of course - there must be a lot of card factories in garages and old warehouses, turning out physical plastic cards to sell on. With modern chips, this must be a pretty sophisticated job.
My new card said that it wasn't valid until signed. What is the point of the signature, since it forms no part of any type of purchase, unlike on a cheque?

 

[Hen-Gen]

Ditto.
But Margaid What’s this landline phone thing you’re referring to. How do they hold your call but make it sound as though you have a dialling tone?
It’s getting to the point where I’m beginning to think of rejecting all technology and buying things in local shops with money.

 

[Marigold]

Ditto.

It’s getting to the point where I’m beginning to think of rejecting all technology and buying things in local shops with money.

Would you have to use an ATM to get the cash out? We used to have 3 banks here, in a town pop. less than 4,000, all gone now, so I expect they're a bit thin on the ground on Fetlar!
And then you might get mugged, or pickpocketed, and then you certainly wouldn't get any money refunded. Businesses won't take cheques any more, so perhaps cards are actually safer than cash.

 

[Tweetypie]

Gosh, Marigold, what a terrible experience and one I hope I do not ever experience.
I dare say that had this been a debit card they had been spending on, you may not have had the money refunded??

I saw a similar thing posted on Facebook about a very, very, believable phone call. He seemed to know all about the person. Luckily, she was very smart and did not succumb to it. I wonder if they call people at random, or they do research before phoning their "victims".

 

[Marigold]

A couple of years ago, I tried to use my card and it failed, and when I rang up they said it had been cancelled because they'd detected a very small purchase made from America. Apparently some thieves try putting through a small amount, around £1.50, in the hope it won't be noticed, just to test if the card details are working.
It's a bit annoying, having to learn another 16-digit number. Mine is so well used that, after a trouble-free year or so, I don't have to go and get my card out to input the long number online.

 

[LadyA]

Several years ago now, I went to use my card one day and had it declined. I rang the Bank, and they were "Um, so, do you have your card then?" And I was "What? Of course I have it. I was trying to use it!" and they told me that someone had called a couple of days before and reported my card as stolen, so it had been cancelled! A new one was on the way to me. How weird! I explained that I certainly hadn't reported it stolen, as I'd had it all the time! So, we don't know what happened or how it happened. Whether a Bank Official took a card number down wrong on a report - but they would have had to have the name and security details right too. It was very strange!

 

[bigyetiman]

Perhaps we should all go back to the barter system. OH has perfected this with her dentist, she was his very first patient once he qualified, 40 years ago and has been with him ever since, and she usually takes him eggs and meat when she goes for a check up and no money changes hands. All came about after a remark he made once about friends in Africa who get paid in goats and yams, and said he always wanted that to happen to him just once !
He is a lovely man by all accounts and spends his hols treating street children in South America and Africa and rounds up old equipment over here to set up mobile clinics abroad.

 

[MrsBiscuit]

Having spent most of the afternoon engaged with a fruitless battle with Amazon and another website in another country I am minded to use bartering myself and somehow get out of the whole Christmas thing, even though I am trying to do something nice for small nieces. Grr. Lashings of humbug all round!

 

[Margaid]

Sorry Marigold, I attributed your aluminium foil idea to Lady A by mistake. You'll see from the typing errors that I'm not firing on all 4 at the moment.

I don't know the mechanism Hen-Gen but they do it when you say you're going to phone your bank, or whoever it is they are pretending to be. You put the receiver down (or in my case, press the red button) then when you left the receiver (or press the green button) you will hear the dial tone. They are still holding the line so the call goes straight to them, but at that point you believe that you are talking to your bank or whatever.

According to this https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/phone-scams the line stays "open" for up to two minutes after you hang up. So one way around it would be to wait 10 or 15 minutes before ringing your bank, but of course they rely on people getting into a panic and doing it straight away.

They do as much research as they need Tweetypie. There was a case reported recently where a fraudster had rung the victim's bank and actually got one of the second level security questions wrong. The bank flagged it but still carried out the transaction!!!!!!! The victim finally had the moeny refunded by the bank.

 

[Margaid]

I use cash most of the time Hen-Gen except when I'm shopping on-line. Then I use Paypal if possible as it gives another layer of protection. We no longer have a bank but they did find somewhere else to put the cash machine as the only other one is in the supermarket which closes at 8pm. Of course you can withdraw cash at the Post Office if you're fortunate enough to still have one, as I am

 

[Marigold]

We used to have a lovely purpose-built Victorian red brick Post office here in Whitchurch, with the sorting office at the back, quite an imposing building. It's now a wine store. There was such an outcry a few years ago when it was proposed to close the post office and move everything to Basingstoke, after the three banks had all closed, that we eventually got a small P.O. counter at the back of our tiny Tesco. Two weeks ago this little Tesco closed for 'refurbishment', along with the Post Office counter, and isn't due to reopen until next week sometime. Unless they're converting it into the Tardis, I don't think it will turn out to be much different in the very small space. Meanwhile everyone, including the small businesses who rely on the Post Office to pay in takings, and people like me with parcels, have had to drive or get the bus to Overton, 5 miles away, where their much larger Co-op has a P.O. counter. There's a cash machine outside the Tesco, often vandalised and not reliable, also now inaccessible as it's in the weeny car park space belonging to Tesco, all fenced off at the moment for the builders vans. There's one in the Co-op, (marginally bigger than the Tesco) but like Margaid's it's not always accessible.

 

[Icemaiden]

I had some trouble with Nat West several years ago & had to spend a lot of time on the phone with them, forever being put on hold, then transferred from one call centre to another. After one call a member of staff rang me back. Rather than give my card or account details, I took their name & went all the way to the nearest branch (a 20 mile trip but quicker than getting through on the phone!). They confirmed that no-one of that name worked anywhere for the bank...

Since then I've also had my Nat West credit card cloned & been charged for purchases made for a games console (I don't possess one) using an iPhone (haven't got one of those either!). The retailer was asked to repay the bank but insisted that I had definitely made the purchases...

 

[bigyetiman]

Two people I work with have had their car number plates cloned, and in both cases received parking / speeding fines and a fine for not paying the Dartford crossing charge. Luckily they were both in work at the times of the offences and the cars didn't match theirs, but you have all the aggravation of sorting it all out.

 

[Tweetypie]

Well I never!! Just days after seeing this post and commenting, I had 2 weird text messages .....