A sister for Dolly

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Cj2512

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I'm just back from the vets where I had to say goodbye to Gert - my gorgeous two year old ginger chook. I've just buried her and I'm really sad about loosing her - surprisingly so. However I need to think about her sister, Dolly, who I don't want to be on her own too long so I'm going Friday to get a new sister for her.

Given I'm only getting one and I only now have one, do people think I'll have to keep them separate? I don't want to set them off on a wrong footing. Having just lost Gert I really don't want to get this wrong.

Thanks guys
 
Sorry to hear your bad news about Gert. If at all possible it is better to get two Cj, obviously I realise this may not be the case. You really do need to keep them separate, ideally for at least a fortnight and when you do finally put them together then you will need to be prepared to see Dolly go for the newcomer, it's perfectly normal but will settle down after she has asserted herself.
 
Yes I agree, it's not only that Dolly will be aggressive to a newbie but also as quarantine in case the new one is carrying a latent infection which may emerge under the stress to her immune system of moving home. This is the problem when just keeping two gens when one dies - yiu then have an older, dominant resident who s territorial about a newcomer, and a newbie with no other young bird to pal up with at first. What kind of coop and run do you have for them? How many square yards or metres of run space?
 
Thanks Dinosaw and Marigold - really appreciate your kind words. Am surprised just how cut up I am about losing Gert and seeing Dolly all quiet and forlorn is making it so much worse. If I didn't have Dolly I would definitely be giving it a few weeks before I went to get more but I don't want Dolly on her own. There's a place that's open til 7 tonight so I think I'm just going to bite the bullet and go there.

I only have a small garden so my run area is only 2m by 1.5m - that's why I only went for the two girls over the three. Although I had been thinking of trying to enlarge it by a further 1 x 1m. I do have them out every evening for an hour or two as there's an entry round the back of the house where I have a 2m by 1m pen which they happily scratch away in and which I can move around to let them have a change of ground. Plus at weekends they get lots of out time. The coop is a wooden one with two nest boxes and is supposed to sleep 4, but I'd think that would be too crowded.

So my questions are -

1) based on the space I have available should I get one or two more girls?
2) do I have to separate them at night in the coop?
3) are there any ways of reducing the stress (for them and me!)

Thanks guys - I read up a lot before I got them so knew this day would come but was hoping I'd have more than a year and a half before I had to deal with it.
 
Given the space, only go for one. They need to be kept separate during the day and ideally at night too to as it stops the chance of violence in the house and in the morning when you let them out before you can separate them. If you have anything like a a dog crate which you can use to keep the newcomer safe while Dolly gets used to the intruder then that may be the way to go. In the end though it is going to come down to letting Dolly put the newcomer through the mill till she is happy she has stamped her authority enough to stop, some birds are worse than others with this and you can never tell how it's going to go.
 
That was my thought Dinosaw - I'm going to do the extension but still it's not much space for them so I think two is best.

I've worked out a way I can divide the coop and run and I'm happy to set my alarm earlier for the next couple of weeks to limit the time in the coop once they're awake. I think I can do it so they have a side each of the water and feeder too - or do you think it would be best for them to have their own? Also can I let them out together when I'm about - as long as I'm there to supervise and stop any aggression?

I hope Dolly isn't too tough on the newbie but I guess I'll just have to keep reminding myself that they are chickens and they have to get the pecking order sorted. I think Gert had been the boss of Dolly although they always seemed so sweet to each other and there was certainly never any violence between them, so I guess it's Dolly's turn to take charge.
 
Probably best to let them have their own feeder and drinker as it will reduce the level of nonsense you get with them trying to peck at each other through the partition. After they have had a couple of weeks separate then pick a day when you are going to be at home and I would let them have access out into the garden proper if you can so the newbie has more room to get away. Try to intervene as little as possible as it only prolongs the process, it's really only worth getting involved if you see blood or if one bird has gone to ground and is being continually pecked beyond what is reasonable. Hopefully after they have got used to each in their partitions it will be a lot more sedate than that, but you know you can never really tell how it will go until you put them together.
 
Yes I agree - space is the most important thing, and letting them out in the garden will be good when you can do it because if the newbie has room to get away you'll probably find they'll appear to be ignoring each other but actually will be sizing each other up, with fewer problems about Dolly's close personal space being invaded. You could also let them out separately during the quarantine period, for a break, and then they can look at each other through the mesh if they want to. Or of course, you could take the fairly small health risk and let them out together into the garden after just a day or two, and hope for the best. It would however, be very much better if you could give the new girl somewhere to sleep on her own until they are integrated - nothing fancy, no need for a perch or nestbox, just a waterproof box or a cat carrier with a bit of bedding in it, doesn't have to be a coop or off the ground, just somewhere she can sleep in and feel safe. She could go in a shed or garage, or indoors in an unheated place, if preferred. When you decide that you're going to let them out together the next day, go down after dark on the evening before, pick up the sleeping newbie and put her to perch in the main coop next to Dolly, who will also be asleep and won't notice. They'll then sleep together and wake up smelling the same, and emerge together, which is better than putting a new bird into a space which is defended by a resident who is awake at the time. Then let them out into the garden if possible.
In a very small run like yours it may be good to give the new bird some 'time out' on her own during the first week, to eat, drink and rest a bit. If you give her treats she will also get to know you and become tame much faster.
In the longer term, is there any way you could make the run bigger? We recommend a minimum of 2 sq.metres of floor space per hen, excluding what is taken up by feeders, drinkers, dustbath etc, which can take up a lot of space in a little run. Ideally you would create a walk-in run with the coop free-standing inside, much easier on the back when cleaning out, and good for catching a bird when needed, as well as being a large enough space for them when they are in there all day for some good reason.
 
Hey Marigold

So as well as having the run there's an area that I let them into next to the run when I'm in the house but it is just surrounded by a temporary fence. I've been planning how to Incorporate it for the last few weeks so am hoping to do it this weekend. It means they'll have 3m by 1.5m so that should be more suitable. They get time out in a pen every day too so hopefully they've not been too cramped. i did check the RSPC website before I got them and that said 1 m2 each so I thought it was ok especially with time out of the run daily. The runs not walk in - my construction skills don't go that far but it's covered and I take off the roof weekly when I clear out the run.

So I picked up Meryl tonight - POL Warwickshire Bluebell. Very sweet but understandably scared. Dolly was interested but didn't seem too aggressive - they just saw each other through mesh and I did put them in the coop together after dark as the man at the farm said that was the best way. They've cosied up next to each other but I've set my alarm for stupidly early so I'll be up before they are.

I've divided the coop in two and have a new water and feeder so they'll both have their own until they merge. Im just going to take it really slow and I'll keep a close eye on them. I've cut out a divider too for the coop so if I think bedtimes aren't working they'll be divided.

Thanks again for the advice - you've made me feel so much better

Claire
 
Oh I give up - the penultimate coop should be a run. The final coop is correct! Slept badly last night - couldn't stop thinking about Gert!
 
Hi CJ,
Picture of Merrill please!
It sounds like Dolly and Gert got on very well and they got out in the garden as well so they were having a fine time. The 2m^2 min rule is a good one but its mostly based on chickens who don’t get on so well being able to get out of each others space. Beyond about a metre and a half chickens lose focus so don’t recognise individuals so well unless they are big and a strikingly different colour (like my new black Orpingtom - daft of me but its working out.)
With 2 its different - no gang chasing so it's just between the two of them. Sounds like they may settle very well together as they didn’t do the chest bumping and standing tall routine but it often takes a few hours of being together before they test each other properly.
Gert is perched on a fluffy cloud, watching the goings on with amusement and thanking you for your timely help. Its a cabbage flavour cloud and considerably bigger than 2m^2!
 
Hi Claire, I'm glad it's going well. Bluebelles are sometimes shyer than some other breeds, so it may take a little time for her to become as tame as you're used to, but she will get there, - she'll soon learn who brings the treats! If you have them in the coop together overnight, you won't be able to do quarantine - just keep fingers crossed over that one, but it does give more flexibility for gradual introductions. You're right to take it slowly, it's an enormous change for a young bird, to be suddenly removed from a big flock and to travel to a new place, however nice it is when she gets there. Good luck, and let us know how you get on. It would probably be OK to let them out in the garden together this weekend, as they would have plenty of space to sort out their relationship.
 
Morning all

So I was up from 3:30 evey half hour as I wasn't sure what time chickens wake up - and the thought of Meryl being stuck in with a grumpy, confused Dolly was too much. They eventually roused about 5:15 so at least I'll know when to set clock for now. They're on there separate sides of the run and Dolly is roaming about in the garden - it was always Gertrude that scratched my plants to shreds so Dollys a little bit more trustworthy.

Meryl seems calm and is eating although I haven't seen her drink yet I've had to handle her a few times and she doesn't seem to like that at all - so I'll have to work on that slowly. Dollys not a fan on being picked up but Gert never seemed to mind - she was really quite a friendly chook and never seemed nervous if me. Dolly is s bit freaked out this morning - she is being particularly noisy and is following me about wherever I go - she's currently sat outside the back door preening and waiting for me to come out again.

I hadn't thought about quarantine- although I think someone may have mentioned it in their post. I'll take a photo of Meryl tonight and post it. She's very sweet.

Like the idea of Gert having a snooze on a warm summers afternoon making those lovely little noises of contentment. That's how I'll think of her.

Thanks everyone again and I'll keep you updated
 
The things people will do for their chickens! Well done, Claire, Meryl has certainly landed on her feet with you.
A chicken's day is normally bounded by sunset and sunrise, so at the moment that's sunset at 20.20 and sunrise at 05.39. They go to roost later and later until the summer solstice and then as the days get shorter they spend about 15 hours overnight in the coop. Animals have a fantastic ability to tell the time - our dog certainly knows when it's her feed times and starts telling me off if I'm a few minutes late with the grub. Interestingly, she soon adapts to changes in routine when the clocks go back or forwards.
 
I know Marigold - when I was stood out there at 5am in my dressing gown in the drizzle waiting for Meryl to emerge I did wonder whether I'd lost the plot!

Rick - I'm hoping because they are only two the aggression shouldn't be too bad from Dolly - I swear I never saw her and Gertude ever have a cross word, they used to cosy up next to each other, follow each other around and Gertrude used to preen Dolly. They we just gorgeous to watch. I'm
hoping Meryl and Dolly develop a close bond too.

Oh and I wasn't very clear in my early morning post - I have got them separated in the run, both is set up with a feeder and waterer and some grit and I've given Dolly the coop and Meryl has an upturned box if she wants to hide. I'm about all weekend so I'm going to try them out in the garden together whilst I enlarge the run. I'll be on hand to breakup anything nasty and will separate them again if I think it's too soon. I'll keep them separate too when I'm not about to begin with.
 
I'm guessing that Gurtrude and Dolly were pullets together? My hybrid sisters were like that - sunbathing on the back step in a feathery pile and you had to watch closely to work out the very subtle pecking order. Its a shame it cant always be like that unless you've got room for lots of birds and lots of close groups (and otherwise) amongst them. It will probably take some time but I do think there's every chance that Meryl and Dolly will be close - seems like they are off to a promising start and, lets face it, chickens like company and they’ve only got each other.
But as long as it isn’t tediously fractious it can be funny to watch their more tempered relationships - this evening Bonnie went to roost first and, like is becoming the order, Linden the little fella was second on the perch next to her. Then Betty who doest want to sit next to Aerial at the moment as she is a bit pecky (feeling insecure with Bonnie around who might just suddenly decide she is boss, but unlikely.) Lastly Aerial gets on the perch next to Linden and reaches over him to aim a peck at Bonnie but misses and gets Linden on the head. The indignant stare from Linden was prolonged and enough to strip paint!
 
They were Rick - yours sound funny. Although not sure I could cope with the complicated dynamics of a bigger flock!

So Things are going ok - Dolly definitely wants to get at Meryl so it's going to be a slow process. Meryl was agitated last night when it came to bedtime. I let Dolly go in first and settle and then put Meryl in with her. Poor Meryl seemed unable to settle and was making plenty of noise and banging about in there. I was waiting to intervene in case Dolly got aggravated but it was just Meryl having a melt down - poor girl. She was making such a fuss that Dolly came out to get away from her. Anyway Meryl settled and Dolly went back in. Then it was all calm. I was up at 5:15 to let them out and put Dolly in the pen on the lawn with food and water and headed back to bed.

I guess it may not be as harmonious a relationship as Dolly and Gerts was but hopefully they'll become friends in time. Fingers crossed.
 
Ahh so bedtimes are horrible guys. Advice very much welcomed.

Last night Meryl was awful and caused all the upset but tonight Dolly was just plain right mean. Meryl went to bed really early and went into the nest box Dolly likes to sleep in. About an hour later Dolly went in and for about a minute it was all and I thought 'yay'. And then the ruckus started - I was poised the intervene and then Meryl jumped out followed by Dolly who went for her again and got some feathers. I separated them and started bedtime again. This time I let Dolly go in and settle and put Meryl in the pet carrier to stay calm. After about twenty minutes I put Meryl in to the nest box next to Dolly. Thankfully Meryl settled and they've been asleep since.

So I've a few ideas and wondered what you think -
1). Let Dolly go in first, settle in her box and keep Meryl in carrier until after its dark
2) use strong mesh to separate the coop into two so they can both go in when they like. I can let Dolly have her preferred box and Meryl the other one.

What does anyone think?

Oh and I know they should sleep on the perch but I'll leave that battle for once I've got this war sorted.

Such a sham it was such a horrible experience as Meryl seemed to be settling in well. She must be petrified now - poor love. Dolly is like Jekyll and Hyde. Following me round and 'chatting' to me like she never did before but then like a chicken possessed when she found Meryl in her nest box.

Anyway look forward to hearing any thoughts or tips. Alarm set again for 5am and sleeping in back bedroom with window on the latch so will hear if god forbid there is any kicking off over night. I assume there won't be but not risking it.
 
i think your first option is the best idea. If you had a bit more space, you would probably still have them living separate lives at this stage. It was quite normal for Dolly to kick up a fuss on finding an 'intruder' in her bedroom - I would have felt the same if it was me!
If Meryl goes to roost in a separate box, there's no need to move her into the coop, she will be fine in the box out in the run, as she would be if you had enough room to keep each of them in a divided space in the run. But if you do return her to the coop when both are asleep, why not put her on the perch? Then she will be occupying space which Dolly doesn't use, and will be trained to good habits from the start.
 
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