Wormer in water

Sue

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I was just wondering whether anyone uses the wormer that you put in the water (sorry, don't know what it's called). I think, from previous postings, that most people on here use Flubenvet, but I want to worm mine again soon, but don't want want to use Flubenvet as I can't exclude all other food other than pellets at the moment as I still have a fussy eater. I don't want to use Ivermectin either as some of them have just started laying again and I don't want to have to discard the eggs (having spent the last 5 months having to buy eggs!!) I wondered whether this was available on the internet or whether it was prescription only from a vet.
 
Are you thinking of Verm-X? That comes in a liquid form. But it's only a deterrent, not an actual treatment to kill a worm burden. (And from experience, 'fussy eaters' don't starve themselves if the only food on offer is pellets! ;) :) )


:)
 
You can get a liquid wormer, which has the same ingredients as Flubenvet. I think it is available over the counter, but the downside of it is, that it settles out in the water, so you have to have the time to go around and give it a stir during the day!Can't for the life of me remember what it is called, though I can picture the pamphlet clearly! :D My vet sent me the info, so it might be worthwhile asking them about it.

I looked into it, but didn't use it, as my watering system doesn't lend itself to using it.
 
As CPL says, Vermex, which can go in the drinking water isn't as effective as Flubenvet, which is the only non-prescription wormer that removes gapeworm. We had a fussy eater and we gave them all Marriages Flubenvet premix -loved it. Perhaps your brand of feed isn't very tasty, ours prefer Marriages to Smallholder and prefer SH rearers pellets to SH layers pellets. They get Smallholder layers anyway and eat it in preference to starving.
 
I've seen an article written about it somewhere, but can't remember where!! It's not Vermex I know that, but can't remember the name. It's obviously not something that is well known. I think the person who I got my last two hens from uses it as he mentioned something about wormer in the water, I'll have to contact him to ask. It's only the one hen who is not eating very well at the moment Chris, the others are fine. She hasn't been well and was on Baytril for wheezy breathing. Some days she seems to eat ok, then the next she has hardly eaten at all. She still needs to put on some weight and so can't cut out the 'treats' at the moment - corn, mash etc. If I can't find out what it is I'll just have to wait as it hasn't been 6 months since the last worming yet.
 
I've heard several people say they put Flubenvet in the water so they either didn't read the instructions or ignored them.

Time to try some 'tough love' on your picky hen Sue ?
 
Just found this:

http://www.viovet.co.uk/p3084/Solubenol_100mg/g_Oral_Solution_Poultry_Wormer_-_100g_Sachet/product_info.html

Is this what you were thinking of Sue? Haven't had any experience of it but have read elsewhere that it is not suitable for small flocks and should only be used 'professionally'
 
Think this is the stuff that Philcott talked about Cuwiar. I've just read the instructions. Problem is it settles out so you would have to keep shaking the drinker. In commercial use you put it in the drinking system when water consumption is highest so it hasn't time to settle.
 
Hmm, and I don't think many people could take the time to regularly shake up their chickens water for 7 days...some holiday that would be ;oP
 
I didn't think you could buy Solubenol over the counter - looks like they have created a small package too.

I know it is used on commercial farms regularly and I believe is also made by Janssen Animal Health (or Elanco as they were recently bought out), I have some literature on it somewhere but I have never used it.

Janssen have written a number of articles for the website on Flubenvet and I have had a few articles I wrote 'checked over' by them as I don't want to get into trouble with the Veterinary Medicines Directorate! You have to be careful what you say. I know of two poultry clubs that have been 'told off' by them for publishing information about wormers that aren't licensed for poultry.

Janssen have been very responsive and I try to advertise Flubenvet on the site where I can. They are not paid for adverts. 3 years ago when I asked them for help, the only information I could find online was dotted around forums and none of it was accurate.

They have not tested it with Oil as far as I'm aware although I have always used it this way. The information on the keeping-chickens website was written by me too :roll:

Cod Liver Oil or Olive Oil has been given to chickens for years and is often given as a feed suppliment. It certainly helps with the mixing of Flubenvet and getting it to stick to the pellets.

Flubenvet is the only licensed in feed wormer as far as I'm aware - others are sometimes prescribed by vets but are not tested for food producing animals so will have a withdrawal period. As I'm sure you can imagine, the cost of testing products like this on food producing animals is huge.

Tim
 
Sue

I use Flubenvet with my few hens and I have always put it in other treats, rather than in the pellets..

Am currently mixing some of a small scoopful of the Flubenvet with raw mince (lamb,beef etc) each day in a dessert bowl and throwing bits of that (it looks like juicy worms and they are very keen to eat it!) amongst the hens in different directions to make sure they all get a more or less equal share. Over the 7 days this is fine. I'll do it again in about two weeks time to get the eggs that beome worms as I am told Flubenvet doesn't kill the eggs.

As I have only 8 chickens and they are all quite different to look at this is easy for me! I guess if you had say 50 of one breed then it could be more tricky!

Just a thought.
 
chrismahon said:
Think this is the stuff that Philcott talked about Cuwiar. I've just read the instructions. Problem is it settles out so you would have to keep shaking the drinker. In commercial use you put it in the drinking system when water consumption is highest so it hasn't time to settle.
Yes this is the stuff I was talking about - the information and literature was sent to me by my avian vet at Crowshall Vets. I didn't go with it because I don't have the time to stir drinkers! Well didn't at that time, now that I've retired perhaps I could find time in my busy schedule! :D
 
@pennyblack

Flubenvet kills worms and eggs - but if there is a high infection pressure (well used / muddy ground for example and a lot of worm eggs on this ground / in hosts like earth worms) then birds can be re-infected after treatment as they pick eggs up from their environment. In this case, it is wise to re-treat again before the prepatent period of the worms (the time it takes for them to hatch and then become adult worms of egg laying age again).

Useful to know is that worm eggs are killed in the frosty weather and by UV from the sun in summer (a good reason to keep grass cut short). Worms are inactive below 10 degrees so Spring time is the most common time to see an outbreak of worms as the weather warms up.

The only problem with adding Flubenvet to treats to get them to have it is you can't be sure of the dose a hen is getting. If you are giving too much to a hen in a day for example then the residues that appear in the eggs will be higher and could be greater than the 'safe' level that allows the medication to have no egg withdrawal period...
 
Yes, I knew Flubenvet killed eggs too - sorry. Could have saved you the bother!! I meant to write that they can become re-infected in certain circumstances such as you suggest.( Realised after and really couldn't face editing it as I had made my point about how I worm them which was the point of the original thread). I was given this info sometime back (to re-worm them again soon after) because my hens free range all day all year round in our garden rather than a large acreage so I take that precaution. Thye are not overstocked - 8 hens roaming over most of the 1/3 acre garden - but they eat worms and bugs and are exposed to wild birds etc etc so best to be safer than sorrier. I have never seen worms in any droppings in the almost 8 years I have kept chickens but perhaps I have been lucky - although I know that some are not necessarily visible to the naked eye. I have alos read that chickens will be carrying worms anyway at least some of the time and that as long as they are robustly healthy in general they will suffer no ill effects. I worm my dogs 4 times a year with Drontal plus but I know that chances are - given some of their eating habits and a liking for dead things they find - I cannot guarantee they don't get the odd worm in between.

Anyway, back to worming, to be honest the method of feeding Flubenvet mixed with feed seems inherently flawed to me anyway unless you can micromanage your hens' access to any other food source......... In my case I cannot limit my chicken's access to other food to ensure they have only pellets mixed with the wormer - they are free ranging and I do not wish to pen them in. In fact I can't. So I definitely cannot guarantee they will eat the right amount of pellets with the right amount of wormer mixed in for the right number of days!

As I wrote, as I only have 8 chickens and I can distinguish between them as individuals very easily, I find that this method works for me. I don't know Sue's situation - maybe it is different (the original poster) . I realise it is not a perfect method but they are all pretty much the same weight/size chickens (around the 2kg mark) so over the 7 days I make sure that, with equal parts common sense, measuring and instinct on my part, I can get it as right as any other method that could work for me bearing in mind my chickens' lifestyle. If the odd time a chicken gets a slight bit more then I make sure they get less the next.

I worm them three times a year - January, April and August re-treating as you mention after two weeks have elapsed from the last day of the last treatment. All I can say is it seems to work for me.

Thanks for the response!
 
I have been thinking about putting a wormer in water and wondering how they can get the dose right since chickens drink far more in the warm weather... Hmm :-)05

On the subject of Flubenvet being added to the feed, I have been reading some of my old literature. It has been used on free range farms for more than 15 years in 56 countries according to this literature (which I've had for a good few years). Looking at the worm count graphs, most of the worms are killed after a couple of days of worming so after 7 days, assuming all other treats such as mixed corn are removed, I would think free range hens that appear not to be eating a huge amount should be considered wormed. If not, I'm sure there would be huge problems on commercial farms where there are thousands of layers stocked at a far greater density than our back yard hens with a higher chance of getting infected.

I also looked at the EEC regulation on the maximum residue limits (MRL) that have been set. For flubendazole in eggs, the limit is 400 ug/Kg. When given at the recommended dose, there is no egg withdrawal period as we all know for flubenvet - but we shouldn't forget that there is still a level of flubendazole in the eggs we are eating during treatment (I couldn't find the amount in any literatre I have) so if the dose is increased then so does the level in the eggs we eat... which in turn could be more than this MRL that is deemed 'safe' ... :-)11
 
It's always seemed to me that, whatever method you use, the dose any individual bird gets is fairly hit and miss! I think the manufacturers would do well to market a less concentrated format for keepers of small flocks to dose individual birds, ie a small measuring spoonful to be added to a small volume of attractive 'treat' food to be eaten daily under supervision. When dosing my dog the instructions tell me to give a certain amount per kilo of body weight and I think this would work OK for chickens. Eg 'bantams' 'medium-size LF' or 'large birds'. Then we could treat a few birds, or just one sick bird, just as accurately as when relying on the 'according to appetite' method, woth no distirbance tp their routine. The withdrawal time isn't an issue anyway if treating a sick bird, the important thing is to get an effective dose into her when her appetite for pellets will probably be low.
Flubenvet has been developed and marketed for the poultry industry, where it's obviously the best way to go because the problems of birds free ranging and thus possibly being under dosed don't exist, and any sickly bird would be culled not treated. Also all the flock would be culled at the same time so there wouldn't ever be the need to treat one or two new additions.
 
Tim said:
I also looked at the EEC regulation on the maximum residue limits (MRL) that have been set. For flubendazole in eggs, the limit is 400 ug/Kg. When given at the recommended dose, there is no egg withdrawal period as we all know for flubenvet - but we shouldn't forget that there is still a level of flubendazole in the eggs we are eating during treatment (I couldn't find the amount in any literatre I have) so if the dose is increased then so does the level in the eggs we eat... which in turn could be more than this MRL that is deemed 'safe' ... :-)11

To get anywhere near 400ug/kg MRL (0.4mg/kg per egg) the poultry I imagine would have to eat a huge amount of wormer rather than the speck they would consume on a daily basis.
 
Tim said:
On the subject of Flubenvet being added to the feed, I have been reading some of my old literature. It has been used on free range farms for more than 15 years in 56 countries according to this literature (which I've had for a good few years). Looking at the worm count graphs, most of the worms are killed after a couple of days of worming so after 7 days, assuming all other treats such as mixed corn are removed, I would think free range hens that appear not to be eating a huge amount should be considered wormed. If not, I'm sure there would be huge problems on commercial farms where there are thousands of layers stocked at a far greater density than our back yard hens with a higher chance of getting infected.

I'm not sure but I would think that there are different degrees of free range which might also affect the efficacy of including the flubenvet only in feed???...Free range does not always mean out on grass, rootling under hedges and digging holes in lawns :roll: where any number of goodies can be found and eaten.... The term 'free range' can encompass all kinds of situations: those on a very large fenced area that does not have grass, multiple small flocks in moveable coops on rotated areas of grass, set ups where the hens are in large barns and 'have access to the outdoors' (which many do not access at all) and so on.

Those of us that free range our chickens in the garden could just withdraw special treats like corn, sunflower seeds etc and let the hens continue to rootle and forage and eat the pellets over the 7 days but I still (sorry!) can't see how I could be sure they would all get the right amount of flubenvet in that day's feed. It varies so much with mine, for instance, even when whatever extras I give them stays exactly the same. Yesterday for instance they left quite a bit of the mix of pellets and mixed corn I put in their feeder and we'd had a bit of a frost overnight so the temp was lower and you'd think they'd eat more. Today, no frost and yet they ate almost all that I had given them - yet it was th same amount of food I had allowed for them the day before......It just seems a bit random I think is what I am saying and I can't begin to imagine trying to get either a day's allowance for 8 chickens exactly mixed in to the 'right' amount of food they may or may not eat that day ( :-)19 :-)19 ), or even the whole 7 days for 8 chickens mixed and then actually inside them over the designated timespan! My head is spinning at the prospect.

I think the fact that they reckon the hens should be wormed after 2 days is quite interesting but I'm still not sure how that works given my thoughts outlined above.... :-)09

I just feel grateful that I found out they love mince so much I can get all of them to eat it quickly and easily with the flubenvet mixed into it and it is easy to throw in different directions so I can target different hens while other hens are eating theirs and not worry that one isn't eating it cos they're not in the mood :shock: :shock: I'd tried lovingly chopped grapes ('yeah we like them but....') equally lovingly chopped tomatoes ('we all like them but not all of the time..') and probiotic yoghurt mixed with it ('some of us really like it and eat loads and some of us like it but can't get anywhere near it cos the greedy ones won't let us near it') Huge relief to discover they think mince is worms ;)
 
Marigold said:
It's always seemed to me that, whatever method you use, the dose any individual bird gets is fairly hit and miss! I think the manufacturers would do well to market a less concentrated format for keepers of small flocks to dose individual birds, ie a small measuring spoonful to be added to a small volume of attractive 'treat' food to be eaten daily under supervision. When dosing my dog the instructions tell me to give a certain amount per kilo of body weight and I think this would work OK for chickens. Eg 'bantams' 'medium-size LF' or 'large birds'. Then we could treat a few birds, or just one sick bird, just as accurately as when relying on the 'according to appetite' method, woth no distirbance tp their routine.

Now that would be very helpful :D
 
foxy said:
To get anywhere near 400ug/kg MRL (0.4mg/kg per egg) the poultry I imagine would have to eat a huge amount of wormer rather than the speck they would consume on a daily basis.

That's good to know. it does seem a bit of an inexact science and none of us want to create more problems that we are solving.
 

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