Wobbley Hen

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Hi, one of my hens of about 20 weeks does not appear to be maturing, her comb and wattle are still pale. She is very listless and wobbley. Vent and crop apppar fine, though she does seem a little thin. Any ideas, I've looked through my Haynes manual but can't put my finger on anything. Sparrow
 
Has she been wormed yet? Have you got red mite in the coop? They are the most likely causes if vent and crop are OK.
 
Unfortunately unspite of all the things you mention being done and Ok, she went down hil lso fast and we lost her. All my other girls are fine, checked with supplier and can only think that she had some underlying developmental probelm. Thanks so much for your reply. What do you keep , mine are a range of hybrids, they are really great girls. Sparrow
 
Hi Sparrow. We have a few hybrids still. A bluebell called Bluebell (strange creature), Daffodil who is Rhode Island Red type laying brown eggs (being treated for swollen feet), Gracie who lays massive green eggs (126 gammes is best but averages 80) and Annie a Black Rock who shed her entire egg system over a year ago and then lost most of her feathers but 9 months later grew feathers and is still going -can't lay eggs of course. All the others are Pedigrees, mostly Wyandottes and Orpingtons (large) and Leghorn bantams -41 in total in 11 coops. Will be 8 coops by Winter.
 
Hi Sparrow

Very sad to hear that you've lost your wobbly chicken. We've got the same symptoms in a hybrid (light sussex) hen we've had for about four weeks, approaching point of lay.

She's losing weight and seems (at times) slightly wobbly on her feet, uncoordinated, and very slightly fluffed up and ragged around the edges. Still mostly strutting about (and eating with great enthusiasm). But there's just something not right, if you know what I mean, and she is definitely losing weight despite seeming to eat a lot.

I took her to the vets this afternoon because a previous POL hybrid (one of two introduced to our remaining 2 older hens about six weeks ago) only lasted two weeks before going downhill very rapidly, losing weight despite eating, and becoming uncoordinated and eventually unable to stand.

My supplier (who I trust and seems to be a decent guy) was very helpful and replaced her, suggesting it was a one-off with some sort of internal problem. But the new one seems to be going the same way. Strangely the "speckledy" hybrid that we introduced at the same time has been absolutely fine and is now laying.

The vets have prescribed Baytril in case it's a respiratory disease, but also suggested that it could be Mareks Disease, although a post-mortem would be needed to confirm.

I initially discounted Mareks because there's no actual paralysis (just wobbly-ness) and these mass-produced hybrids are apparently all heavily vaccinated as tiny chicks. BUT: having done a bit more digging, it might be worth having a look at what some other people have said about Mareks on sites like these - to cut a long story short the 'classic' symptoms of leg or wing paralysis seem to be less common these days: instead, vets are seeing a lot of young adult hens which are losing weight, being a bit wobbly and uncoordinated, and going downhill really very quickly (which sounds very much like what yours and mine have had).

I don't know what to do about it if it is Mareks, tho. Does that mean you and I won't be able to introduce new young stock to replace the older ones as they die off? Anyone got any ideas? I planned to keep a basic group of four hens (we have three ducks too) with two older and two younger so that we had a sort of egg-layers succession! But if any new young pullets I introduce are going to have to run the gauntlet of Mareks I may have to rethink my plan - I don't want to sentence them to death and its horrible seeing them go downhill from being healthy, active, growing birds.

The supplier tells me that the point-of-lay pullets he sells are vaccinated against a massive long list of diseases including Mareks. But the vet said that Mareks vaccination isn't 100% effective. And I've read elsewhere that some of the breeders have started taking shortcuts on the vaccination programme to save money. I also read that Mareks disease is particularly likely to affect young hens about to start to lay, and those which are introduced to flocks of different-aged birds, which certainly fits with my experience.

Anyway, I don't know if that's useful to anyone. The previous deaths in my tiny flock (three over the last two years) have all shared very similar symptoms, and once you've got Mareks it sounds as though you're pretty much stuck with it. But I've still got three (apparently) healthy hens - how does that work? Why aren't they affected?

Some questions in case there's anyone out there who can answer them:
  • Does Mareks affect ducks? Could the presence of ducks (same covered run, same largish free-range daytime garden, different houses) have any bearing on what's happening to these young chickens?

    Is there anything I can do to help this chicken (who still has some life left in her) through the disease and out the other side? (I know she'd be a carrier but I guess that doesn't matter if the others are immune).

    Is there any way of introducing new young point of lay chickens to a flock where Mareks is suspected?

    And lastly, how on earth do I dose a chicken with 0.5ml of Baytril in a tiny syringe - I'm supposed to do it 2x per day and its SO stressful and difficult that it can't be good for a sickly bird. Is there a tried-and-trusted way of handling chickens in order to get this stuff into them!?
Any sage advice gratefully appreciated....

Thanks

Chocolate Chicken
 
I have no helpful advise to offer but as the owner of 4, 8 week old chicks(all vaccinated) as well as 4, 8 week old ducks along with 11 adult hens I will be watching this post with interest. Thanks for giving so much info so far-I'm learning alot.
Jo
 
This link will give you a simple understanding of Mareks http://extension.unh.edu/resources/files/Resource000791_Rep813.pdf

and another http://www.apa-abayouthpoultryclub.org/Edu_Material/Poultry%20Diseases/What_is_Mereks_Disease.pdf
 
There is a possibilty its not Mareks but Lymphoid Lucosis. Symptoms are almost identical but LL carries no visible major paralysis. It's like chicken cancer, they all have it latent but some just develop it. Tumours form along the lymphatic system. It can't be vaccinated against. Two of ours have had it. With one, laying triggered a huge tumour the size of a golf ball on her bottom, the other had leg paralysis. Its not contageous, just happens. We tried anti-inflammatories both times but it just delayed the inevitable by about three weeks. None of our Pedigrees have any immunisation programme -its a commercial hybrid need because of the massive risk of infections spread during production breeding programmes, overcramped housing and no break in occupation.

Sounds like despatching the hen is kindest thing. If LL can introduce more as normal. Problem is Mareks is contagious and with two hens ill in a short space of time the 'modified' Mareks could be a possibility, or they could be entirely unrelated problems and/or coincidental. So the only way is post mortem or risk new birds. Discussed this with our vet who agreed Mareks could be too easily blamed for cases of LL, post mortem is the only way to be sure but our funds don't stretch to £80 and we haven't had multiple illness anyway.

0.5 ml of Baytril is a double dose for a hen weighing 2.5Kg. Dispense with a 1.0ml syringe with no needle fitted -vet should have given you the syringe. Chemist will have some if not vet.
 
Thanks everyone for your support and helpful information. From the information sheets, it sounds like Mareks can affect ducks, but its not clear whether they're at risk directly from infected chickens, if it does turn out to be that.

She's still doing quite a good job of looking healthy, is eating well and her poo seems normal. Nothing untoward in the eyes. She hasn't gone downhill as fast as the previous one, but perhaps that's because I noticed the danger signs earlier this time.

This morning her beak below the nostrils seemed wet, so perhaps it is a respiratory illness after all, and the wobblyness is just the way you feel a bit wobbly when you've got a chest infection. But she's not sneezing or coughing, as far as I know. I've brought her into the corner of the kitchen so that I can make sure she's getting enough to eat and drink, and to make it easier to give her the meds. At the moment I'm feeling a bit hopeful that the Baytril will do the trick, but will keep you updated.

Re: giving her the Baytril. Its a 2.5% solution (I think) and I've been told to give her 0.5ml twice a day. She only weighs about 1.25kg, though. Does that sound like an overdose?

The vet gave me a needle-less syringe but her advice to 'just dribble it down her throat' was rather understating the problem - I noticed she wasn't keen to demonstrate the procedure! I'm afraid of squirting it into her lungs, not entirely sure where I should be aiming the liquid, and after several minutes of me trying to grapple her beak open we were both feeling quite stressed! Helps when my husband is about coz it does seem to be a two-person job. But next week I'll be on my own!
 
Ours is 10% so the dosage is correct. Two person job without experience. One sits and holds hen on lap facing to second persons right. Second puts left hand index finger and thumb to open beak with little finger holding back of head to stop her moving. Index finger then stays in beak to keep it open. Right hand administers via syringe aimed down back of throat. It tastes horrible so give her a grape afterwards.
Sounds like respiratory or mild ILT and not at all like Mareks. So was probably misdiagnosed LL and a coincidence with your current hen. If Baytril works that confirms and no infection of others issues. Light Sussex isn't a hybrid, they are a good Pedigree Utility (good eggs and meat) on a par with Rhode Island Reds (which are feisty). Get to a National show and you will find both breeds there. But some strains are not bred well (too young when hatching eggs taken -should be at least two) and LL may be more prevolent -like some families are prone to early cancers.
 
Thanks Chris. You sound fantastically knowledgeable, what a great person to have on a forum like this. All very useful. I will use your advice re: oral meds, thank you. I've done it three times now and it is getting a bit less stressful as we both get more used to the idea. No sign of squirting it into her lungs, anyway.

I sort of knew Light Sussex was a breed, not a hybrid, but we had a previous Light Sussex and she wasn't A) any more expensive or B) any less productive than our others (which shows my fairly limited understanding of the difference between hybrids and pedigrees!) so I tend to lump her in together with the hybrids. In fact she was the biggest hen we had, laid reliably every day, produced the most enormous eggs and was top-dog in the flock, a real character.

By the way, what is ILT? Our vets are fine for cats, dogs, horses and small animals, but every time I go with a chicken, they give the strong impression that they have never seen one before. Not very confidence-inspiring.

The new hen that died a few weeks ago, wobbly / falling over and emaciated but still eating, was a 'Coral' (white all over). I am still wondering about Mareks, partly because I've heard that hens affected by Mareks can sometimes rally a little for a week or two but ultimately almost 100% will die, but also because my 'Chicken Health Handbook' (very comprehensive but quite hard to navigate when you are looking for a potential diagnosis) suggests that most other illnesses tend to reduce appetite, whereas my current sick bird does seem hungry, but as far as I can tell is still losing weight. She hasn't got any worse, but I haven't seen any real improvement either. I imagine whatever she has got has been brought on by the stress of moving into a new, established flock,and possibly by being exposed to the mess and mucky water that the ducks entail.

I know nothing about LL, but am suspicious that the two recent victims have both been at point-of-lay - from what you say it seems unlikely that LL would happen twice by coincidence, or that it would happen at the same point in their development? I'm unlikely to pay for a post-mortem either, although it would be good to know exactly what is going on. It's hard paying £35 for a vet consultation and meds for a bird that cost £13, and which may well die anyway.

If it does prove to be respiratory (or something else that Baytril does resolve) do I need to worry about the other hens (currently apparently healthy and laying) catching it? Am I going to end up treating them all with Baytril? And is rapid weight loss an expected symptom of chickens being ill generally? Would you expect a hen with a respiratory illness to lose weight?

Any advice gratefully received. I will post an update when / if things change. And I am very glad to have access to such a knowledgeable and helpful forum.
 
LL could easily happen at the same point in development. Light Sussex would be my choice. Hybrids burn out too fast and are designed for commercial flocks which are killed at 18 months and replaced. Not so long ago they went at 12 months. Pedigrees should lay 600 eggs over 4 or 5 years, not 300 in one.
Unless it is IB -infectious brochitis there is no problem of transmission. If it was IB they would all have it and be very ill. Need to make sure coop and bedding isn't damp or dusty as that is the source of chest infections -mould spores get into the lungs.
ILT is infectious laryngotracheitis. Primarily it attacks the throat and eats it. Side symptoms are watery eyes or swelling around the eyes, sneezing and runny nose. So bird looses appetite as it can't eat without extreme pain. So when a bird is sneezing first check is the crop. If empty isolate and treat with Synulox (at £18 per). We've had both ILT and IB outbreaks in our flock caused by introducing hybrids that had been immunised with live viruses (now normal practice) and were therefore carriers. The virus mutates when transmitted so the effects were devistating on the older birds -£250 for the treatment, but we didn't lose any.
 
Hi, everyone, thanks for the comments, suggestions and advice. I'll be getting back to you, only at the moment we are laying 125 metres of drive. Sparrow
 
Hi, everyone, hope all's well with your chicken, all mine seem fine and laying, enjoying the sunshine. Thanks chris, you insite to these problems has been useful and of course gives me something else to find our more details. I think the comment about hybids is very true, they do burn out quickly so you have to try and find the breeds that lay the least amount in a year. Your hens sound like most flocks, full of character and very relaxing to just site and watch when having a cuppa. Also gives you the opportunity to check them out. I'd like to move on to pure breeds, but just can't make my mind up, but that sosmething for the future.
Do love this site, get information and everybodies views, ideas and commnets very hilpful, Sparrow
 
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