understanding cockerels

[chickenfan]

I have reared three marans cockerels this year, a copper black, cuckoo and copper blue that all look good examples of the breed, and would like to keep one for breeding. The copper black is already mature and has been living with the hens for 3 months. He is lovely-natured with me, and just lets me pick him up. However, I'm puzzled the hens (hybrids) always run away from his advances. Does he perhaps not have the right manner, or do they perhaps think he is not right for breeding? It doesn't seem fair to subject them to a cockerel they don't really like.

Cuckoo is 16 weeks and not yet fully mature. He seems placid.

Blue marans is also 16 weeks, but has suddenly fully matured. He has an extremely loud crow, crows all the time including at 5am and spends all his time strutting around and showing the hens treats (in a separate pen at present as the marans girls are too young). He also struts at me when I go to the pen and when I picked him up this eve he pecked me hard. I've never had this before.

Does it look as though Blue Marans might turn out to be a bit aggressive to handle? Is he likely to be very fertile and what the hens want, or might he be aggressive and annoying for them to live with too?

 

[chrismahon]

The hens will reject any advances if they are not laying, or about to lay, Chickenfan. So at this time of year you can't tell what will happen. We always discard cockerels that are too aggressive, both to us or the hens. They will only breed more aggression and damage the hens unduly. All of ours are friendly enough -they were happy to be picked up until they were given a flock of hens, then they become more defensive but not nasty. We always feed the cockerels treats first so they can bring the hens to them and never deliberately stand between the cock and his hens as that undermines their authority. What we are aiming for is a tight knit flock with hens that follow their cock and listen and respond to danger warnings. But we don't want a cock that won't stand his ground to protect his hens, so when you enter the run he should always stand between you and his hens ready to defend. After all, if there is a predator strike he is there to buy the hens time to escape, even if he dies in the process. We had a very heroic cockerel tackle a fox and give his hens time to escape, they both survived (although his favourite hen then went looking for him later and was killed as well).

 

[chickenfan]

Thank you for your very interesting reply, Chris and the tips on managing cocks. The 5 hens with the copperblack are in lay, but every morning there is a big chase when he wants to mate with them, then they stay together as a group for the rest of the day. He isn't a heavy treader, but doesn't do any wing-dropping or circling charm before jumping on them. Do you think for some reason they might recognise he is not good breeding material which is why they run away? He is extremely handlable and never shows any defensiveness towards me in the garden, but he had a lot of handling as he grew up.

I can't make out the copper blue cockerel. As soon as I let him out this morning he started circling me. Does he think I am a hen, or something to challenge? He is not with any hens, so has nothing to defend and it is mid-winter. He drew blood when he pecked me last night, but perhaps he was nervous of me picking me up to put him away as he hasn't been handled much. Do you think this one is showing signs of being aggressive and not worth risking? I notice the adult hens standing by his run, so maybe he looks quite nice to them?

He is splendid to look at, but could be taken with a local smallholder's birds to a local poultry abbatoir to be dispatched and prepared as meat. Do you think this would be a horrible way to go (if it comes to this)?

 

[chrismahon]

First the Copperblack Chickenfan. It's not that they don't recognise him as good breeding material as such but they don't see him as cockerel material. He needs to do the 'stompy dance' before any submit, otherwise they won't be impressed and won't submit. He will then have no option but to ambush them, usually waiting until they are feeding or decoying them to phantom titbits. Pretty useless really and not a cockerel I would bother with as they won't listen to him much. Perhaps he will improve but I somehow doubt it, although we had a Wyandotte called Frankie who started like that and then developed almost overnight into a fantastic boy.

The Copper blue is probably in attack mode and asserting his authority. Give him hens and he will probably attack you when you approach them. Great if you were a fox but puts you or any visitors in danger. The hens are impressed -the macho type hens like until they tread them to bits. It is possible he thinks you are a hen, but I very much doubt it if he is already in sight of hens. Given a choice of the two I don't know what to do at this stage. If you were free ranging them the Blue would definitely be the choice. But in safe confinement the Black for the sake of the hens. I would wait to at least 20 weeks before deciding. We have two bantam Leghorns with similar characteristics. It will be the quiet one we keep as they will be penned permanently. The other flies at me and attacks without any real reason, even when filling the drinker or feeder -a total nutter and I have the scars to prove it! He would make a good guard 'dog'.

Taking any into an unknown flock for shipping and despatch sounds horrible. He is likely to be pecked to bits on the way -or damage some of the others. He won't present as much of a carcass with chunks out of him. In a confined space you could be looking at broken limbs. I would despatch on site before first light when it is quiet, as we always do.

 

[dinosaw]

I think it depends what you want the cockerel for to be honest, if it is solely to breed new chickens then how he goes about it really doesn't matter. To give an example, I brought in a cockerel for breeding who had pretty much all the traits of your cockerel and what Chris described in the first paragraph of his last post, decoying them and ambushing them, he was a nice fella though, not overly rough and when it came to hatching time I got 90 per cent fertility from running him with 5 hens which I was delighted with, I would also say that my hybrids have always seemed a lot less keen on being tread than my pure breeds so that could also be a factor in what you are seeing. With regards to cockerel aggression I have zero tolerance, they never get a chance to attack me twice though in fairness I have been relatively lucky in this respect. Aggresive cockerels can actually be quite dangerous especially around kids, a pekin cockerel of all things nearly took an eye out on one of my friends kids and I've read posts from people who have got fairly bad leg injuries while wearing shorts. As for culling, if you are breeding then you really need to learn how to dispatch yourself not only to save you relying on others but to ensure that the bird had been sent on its way properly.

 

[Marigold]

I'm interested to hear that the hybrids are less keen on being trodden - could this have anything to do with the fact that broodiness has been bred out of them, do you think? Maybe just not interested in sex and maternity?

 

[chickenfan]

Thanks so much for your helpful feedback Chris and Dinosaw. Very interesting. I am glad the copperblack could have good fertility. The birds have my whole garden and I want to be able to relax with them, as well as rearing a few chicks of my own each year.

Copperblue is puzzling. He doesn't go to bed even in pitch darkness, but carries on talking and walking around. He talks or crows all day. Every time he sees me he rapidly sidles up to the fence. If I give him a treat, he then makes clucking noises to offer them to me. This is why I thought he might think I'm a hen. I am bringing him into my kitchen in a giant catbox overnight because of his 5am crowing. However, even in the catbox he sidles up to me in a threatening way if I talk to him gently and give him a tit-bit. If he hasn't mistaken me for a hen, he is intimidating. I am worried even to go in his pen in the day. But I want to be sure this is not a temporary phase and I'm not making a mistake if he has to go.

I've been on a dispatch course which used the broomhandle method. I agree it seemed fairly simple in a group, but I've been nervous trying it on my own in case things go wrong. I've twice had experienced poultry keepers come to help me dispatch, and they found killing a large strong marans cockerel by neck dislocation very difficult (but they didn't use the broomhandle method). It will be a while before I can repeat the course.

I have a friend who sends a few (commercial) meat youngsters to be professionally dispatched each week. She could take my cockerel in his own container, and he would come back dressed for a small fee. Better to learn myself, but do you still think this a poor option?

 

[dinosaw]

When you say that you find the Copperblue intimidating Chickenfan that worries me, at that age a good hard stare at him ought to be enough to make him stop his antics as I used to do with a bantam boy who used to like to shuffle at me when he was young. Obviously there are some things you can try short of culling to assert your dominance but they're not guarenteed to succeed such as pressing down on the cockerels back to make him squat and show him you are higher up than he is. If I was in your position personally I would cull but you will know what you feel to be the right thing, you could wait a few weeks as Chris said and try to be a bit more dominant in your behaviour and see how it goes, just be careful if you do. When it comes to culling it's again your personal choice as to whether you feel able to carry it out yourself, what I can say is that the broomhandle is a huge force multiplier, not meaning to be graphic but I have decapitated chickens using less force with this method than I would in neck dislocation by hand.

Wondered about whether it was breeding myself Marigold, though it's funny that they would squat for me anytime I got near them. Maybe it's just my lot?, would be interesting to hear if others found the same.

 

[chickenfan]

Well thinking about it, all the chicks were friendly, but Copperblue has never been sociable. I'm sorry you don't think he will grow out of it.

 

[tygrysek75]

This is a great tread,I have mine decision to make with simular problem.Thank you for everyone who wrote in here.

 

[chrismahon]

We have a few submissive hens that will squat when I approach them Dinosaw. They are the cockerels favourites. The rest will not submit without the appropriate 'dance' or by ambush.

If you are not confident on your own Chickenfan I think shipping him out as you describe the best solution. Point to note if you do try - if the bird goes limp immediately it is stunned not dead. It may subsequently bleed to death or suffocate but that is hardly humane. The bird should immediately spasm (quite violently in a young strong cockerel) and will continue for two minutes. The last spasm raises the neck feathers. Sorry to be so graphic but it is an important detail.

I'm leaning towards the Copperblack. Think the Copperblue will get worse not better. We have tried the intimidation tactics and they only work on a borderline case. The little cockerel we have has been lifted, prodded, picked up, cuddled, hung upside down (his fault he got his feet caught in the feeder string when he attacked me) and still comes at me fighting every time. He is 14 months old now. His brother was going the same way, but after a few cuddles stopped and runs away (unless his brother starts then he sometimes joins in). They are very pretty though.

 

[chickenfan]

This is all very helpful, thankyou Chris. I presume no-one would want him for breeding even though he looks perfect. You still feel the professional slaughter a bad idea if he goes in his own box?

 

[chrismahon]

The important thing Chickenfan is that he is despatched correctly, so shipping him out in his own box is your best option. Someone may want him if they free range their large flock of hens and have a potential predator problem. He would be great here.

Strange thing, our little monster has quietened down a bit since we enlarged his run. Perhaps he feels less threatened by me as he has room to escape?

 

[MrsBiscuit]

Very interesting thread

Personally I would get rid of the blue, there are enough cockerals in the world without having to contend with a difficult one. Added to which you have 2 other cockerals as possible stud birds and unless you have a lot of space/lots of hens/no neighbours I don't suppose you were going to keep all 3 of them anyway? My gut feel is that he will get more uppity as he gets older and a marans is large enough to be a real problem. I would have no qualms about sending him off to a despatcher and receiving him back as a dinner because you are sending him to somebody who despatches for a living, so I'd be confident it was done correctly. Having said that, I despatch at home, and if you are going to do it then the broomstick method is suitable for those of us with less strength, even for larger cockerals, particularly if they are still juvenile. Its always going to be tough the first time, so my advice would be to watch it enough times on video until you feel confident, be in the right frame of mind, and be decisive. Its still tough, but I always remind myself that my birds have had a good life, better than many. Many people do it at dusk when the birds are sleepy and won't get stressed being caught. Just one other thing, there will be flapping post-mortem; this is completely normal, it doesn't mean you haven't done it correctly.

 

[chickenfan]

Thanks to all of you for your input and for providing so much information. Its particularly helpful to know, Chris, everything to look out for re broomstick. Do they die at moment of neck breaking or the spasm you speak of, or later?

He is an enormous bird - but do you think he could see a fox off?

 

[chrismahon]

I haven't used the broomstick method Chickenfan. But if they spasm immediately they are dead immediately. We first used a wall mounted despatcher, which supposedly does a similar thing, breaks the spinal column. But it does it by crushing the vertebrae rather than pulling them apart. One school of thought is that the head lives for a time afterwards though -perhaps like the heads that blinked their eyes after 'madame guillotine' removed them from the torso (the French Revolution was a gruesome period of history). So we moved on to a shot in the head (through the skull) with a maximum power air pistol. But that method has its limitations here as bigger and older birds have too thick a skull. Unfortunately English air rifles, which would be what is then needed, are too powerful and are illegal here. We therefore have a dilemma for older birds and will have to use the despatcher, rather than an illegal firearm.

A big cock won't see off a hungry fox. But he will put up a hell of a fight. Perhaps enough to distract the fox from chasing after the remainder of the flock. If they scatter and hide, assuming they have somewhere to hide, some or all will survive. I have heard of this happening and have witnessed it myself. But if the flock is in a bare enclosure and the hens can only hide in the coop it would be pointless as the fox would enter the coop later and kill all the hens in it. So a big aggressive cockerel is only of practical use free ranging, when the hens can scatter and hide effectively. He might however dissuade other predators like mink, a stray dog and perhaps buzzards.

 

[chickenfan]

You are a mine of information Chris, thankyou. Very interesting about a protective cock, and that he could be of substantial use in seeing off predators. As it happens Copperblue has some reprieve, as a friend who is used to aggressive cockerels is keen to try him for breeding. If he ends up being too difficult, or too heavy on the hens, I've said I will give him another one.

 

[chickenfan]

Copperblue seems to be doing quite well in his new home where he's much admired and is now called 'Don Quixote'. He has a huge area to range and so far he has not been aggressive.

 

[chrismahon]

That's good news Chickenfan. Don Quixote is a great name and I think the available area has an influence on levels of aggression, based on my experience earlier. Our little monster seems better still, although I did jump back yesterday when I thought he was about to attack me -I was only filling the feeder!

 

[chickenfan]

Don Quixote has several acres now. I'm glad to hear your 'little monster' is better. Is he nice with the hens?

My cuckoo marans is now coming into his own and looking totally gorgeous. He is a placid soul and lovely-natured, but has been exhausting my adult marans hens with his constant attentions, and they even hid in their house for some peace, so he is now in a separate pen. Perhaps Marans are not very good at the charm side.

Would it work to put him with Copperblack out of sight of the hens, or would they fight? Would this make them crow less? I feel two cockerels crowing together is going to be too much for my neighbours.