The Problem With Hybrids

dinosaw

dinosaw

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I'm talking about commercial laying hybrids here, not home bred hybrids which I actually have a lot of time for as they can often exhibit exactly the sort of hybrid vigour that you would seek in a bird.

From memory I think I have kept fifteen commercial hybrids. I would like to think I have kept them in good conditions, practiced good husbandry and looked after them pretty well yet I am still to see one last much longer than three years, it is almost like they have a kill switch in them that activates at around 130 weeks old. Now I am fairly robust, when me and my wife first started keeping chickens we agreed we wouldn't involve vets, we would learn to treat our own chickens and if they couldn't be treated then we would send them on their way. I have lost count of how many chickens I have killed to be honest, I don't enjoy it but it is a responsibility that you have to take on especially when you breed them and are hatching 5-6 boys each time and I have become relatively hardened to it. What I try to do is limit how many birds I kill in a short space of time but sometimes events overtake you like recently when I have had to kill three in a short space of time, it has depressed the hell out of me, so what it would do to someone with perhaps a less pragmatic view on chicken keeping. If your not of a similar type to me of course you will seek veterinary help which can run into hundreds of pounds with the same end result and the same upset.

Given the choice between prolific first season egg laying, average second season laying and then a virtual shutdown often accompanied by health problems versus a bird which lays less but more consistently and has virtually double the average life expectancy from now on I think I could only steer people in the direction of pure bred chickens and advise them against hybrids, they may be harder to source and more expensive but in the long term the effort I think would be worth it, not only in financial terms when you consider vets bills saved and the cost of replacement birds but also in emotional terms of not having to watch your feathered friends die every couple of years.
 
I suppose it depends where one is on the scale of regarding chickens as purely decorative pets, from whom an occasional egg is a welcome bonus, versus seeing them as nice birds to have around who need to earn their keep by producing enough quality eggs to cover the cost of feed etc. If you keep longer-lived purebreds who are less productive in the early years, but go on laying for more years, then each egg will cost you up to twice as much because the bird will have needed twice as much food, wormer, parasite control, bedding etc in perhaps her six years of life as a highly productive hybrid with her 3-year life expectancy. The purebreds are more likely to enjoy a very lengthy but unproductive retirement, compared with the commercial hybrids who seem to be programmed to collapse around 3 years old, as you say. Additionally, many purebreds have a tendency to go broody several times a year ( yes, I remember you well, Marigold, you were a right pain) and unless you want them to sit, it takes time and patience to get them back to normal, during which time egg production stops for a month or more, several times each season. So you need to know your breed.
I think choice of hybrid is also very relevant. There are several breeds of 'brown layer' hybrids which are highly genetically tailored for short-term commercial production, and if you take on exbatts you have to accept this as part of their makeup and expect the problems you have mentioned. However, if you can find a genuine breeder of hardy, field-reared hybrids (such as Chalk Hill Poultry) you will probably get a strong and healthy bird with true hybrid vigour who is not inclined to go broody, lays well for several years, (and then settles down to a long retirement when really you wish she would just pop her clogs so you would have room for a young one to replace her...) Such hybrids will likely cost around £20 and in my opinion are a good trouble-free buy for entry-level keepers starting out with their first birds, or people like me who like a mixture of birds who will lay well. Purebreds will cost twice as much at POL than sensibly-priced hybrids, and there's no guarantee they'll be more long lived or any healthier. So much depends on the breeder, as with all young stock of any species,
I do regard my chickens with affection, I know them as individuals and do my best to give them a contented and healthy life, and happy retirement for as long as they're healthy. But I'm not closely attached to them as beloved pets, though I can understand that many people are. For me, as soon as they go downhill with anything I can't treat, they're off to the vet - I agree with you about not getting involved in expensive treatments, Dinosaw, but after maybe 5-6 years with a hen, for me it's worth the £18.50 my vet charges to PTS and dispose of the body, (equates to £3.50 a year of her lifetime, and around about what I paid for her in the first place) and I can do this with no regrets or trauma and still keep my affectionate memories of each of them.
 
Yes I should have stated Marigold that where I am coming from on this is the assumption that most people who land on this forum are keeping chickens in their back garden are doing so as semi-pets, after all if you want cost effective eggs then keeping chickens isn't the way to go about it, they are always cheaper to buy. I have 25 chickens, keep them for fun and because I really like them, naturally when you get up to that number you do become less close to them as individuals with a few exceptions of course who you become more attached to. I am just going by the many posts from people who are heartbroken when they lose their hens, in that case you ought to be looking for a long lived bird and there are plenty of pure breeds out there which aren't known for broodiness and also others who are winter layers too. I think you are quite lucky to live near to Chalk Hill, I have looked at their site and there aren't too many operations like theirs about. In most poultry centres it is generally a case of getting a large monthly delivery of assorted 18 week old pullets from the wholesale farmers. It should also be noted that a number of chickens such as the Columbian Blacktail are just commercial hybrids bred for a slightly different purpose, in their case to make Waitroses eggs sound fancier than they are, they are in essence Goldlines with a black tail.
 
CBs are actually brilliant little birds, the ones I've had have each laid beautiful big eggs in relation to their size, and kept going practically nonstop for three seasons and then gone on to healthy retirement. The last one I had laid almost every day and must have produced well over 700+ eggs in less than three years, where I think a hen is supposed to have around 500 egg cells to play with, is that right? She then went on to retire for a couple of years without any of the usual sort of hybrid 'women's problems'. Last time I went to Chalk Hill to get new birds I heard they had some CBs in stock, but by the time I got there, two days after it was announced, somebody else had bought the lot!
Yes I should have said 'contributed to their keep' rather than 'earn their keep' - how anybody makes any money out of keeping hens I cannot imagine, but I do like to have a batch of up to six girls who will keep us in home-made eggs when we want them.
 
Another potential plus, though I would admit it could also be construed as a drawback is that Pure breeds are generally raised in small batches where it is not cost effective to administer the plethora of vaccinations that hybrids are given. The reason many people take on their own chickens is to get away from that industrialised egg production and all the chemicals that are pumped into birds. On the other hand you could argue your hens are then more liable to disease though I have found that my pure breeds are by and large hardier birds.
 
Waitrose have an advert recently that is a real fix for chicken people - a camera on the grass in a field full of chickens. It should have its own channel I reckon! But I did think, Hey they’re not CBs.
As you know, I’ve only had chickens for a couple of years - mostly brown hybrids and they have had some problems already. I like to think I'll keep them till their breaking records but really... I think they would keep laying in an igloo through a polar winter, its got to take a toll sometime. Also got a CB on Marigolds recommendation. She is such a funny bird, indomitable, chatty and brilliant - sort of a stronger, gamey appearance if you know what I mean but both she and my very pretty CLB are only a year old so far and haven’t had cause to run in to much trouble.
It surprised me how much it affected me thinking that one of my hybrids was on the way out this week Anyone tuning in who did keep chickens that paid their way would have been thinking 'Oh for goodness sake pull yourself together man!' But then I do know such a smallholder and they have a favourite ex-batt that arrived with no feathers and will retire for as long as she can go on.
There are literally billions of chickens out there! 99.9% of them are simply 'that useful bird that you get to eat twice' - and a good proportion of those are in awful conditions.
But my hens are pets - totally (who just happen to lay a lot of tasty eggs.)
Its unfortunate that its difficult to introduce 1 young bird from time to time and get a more continuous spread across the ages. What has happened to you recently dinosaw would be pretty stressful for anyone who is fond of their chooks.
 
Thanks Rick. For someone like yourself where space is at a premium it is a shame that you can't just introduce a bird at a time. When (and I hope it is a long time coming) your original birds pass away then if you can't find anything locally that takes your fancy you can have a couple of my Silver Sussex if you want. They are really healthy good looking birds that lay well too but could do with someone who can spend more time with them to calm them down a bit as they are skittish, you would be an ideal owner for them. Anyway lets hope it's a long time before that is something you have to consider. The CB is the free range version of the Goldline/Lohmann etc but is a RIR X LT Sussex all the same. No shame in growing attached to chickens, I've been woken up at six in the morning by one wrecking my bathroom after it spent all night in there by the radiator after we had given it a warm bath to shift an egg and it had prolapsed remember how pleased we were to see her up and about and the prolapse gone. There is a certain song I hear that every time it plays I immediately think of a an amazing Welsummer we had and a warm spring afternoon with her and her daughter pecking away at some pieces of cake we let them have, always makes me smile but feel a little sad too.
 
Hi Rick,
since I decided to go for purebreeds only my egg output has fallen has fallen drastically, but I do have some gorgeous girls that are a pleasure to behold. 2 crazy Anconas, 2 Legbars, 2 Croads and my hatch of 9 Croads as yet unsexed and growing apace, 12 Croads in the Brinsea from the Club Secretary, and also my 3 utility Leghorns from last year who are still laying. All hens are lovely, but purebred ones I think are the tops. Character and looks and temperament also come into it.

There may be some Croad cockerels on the market soon!!! It would be lovely if someone on the forum decided to support the breed as well.

Having praised purebred girls, I am trying to get hold of a couple of Columbian blacktail girls, for their small size (to offset the bulk of the Croads)
and for their lovely nature and unfailingly beautiful eggs. they seem rarer than their own teeth!!
 
Have found a couple of Blacktails, very difficult to get hold of, apparently Waitrose are to blame, nobody now seems to have them, - it appears that Waitrose sweep the board, can that be true?

They are such dear girls, very bright, pretty and demon egg layers. Really looking forward to picking up mine. The fox got my last lot, the year before last. Having said I want a closed flock, I shall make an exception for these two, put them in the big run and divide it for a few weeks, so that they can get used to each other through netting. Also the fact that they were vaccinated as day old chicks and none of my others are.
 
I got my blacktail from Warwickshire chicken coop but don't know if that's a regular thing or a one off. Regular I think. Can't believe Waitrose run around the country collecting them from small breeders. They must have a contractor and, I would imagine, a pretty tight supply chain.
So many lovely chickens but I've defiantly got a full house for now!
 
If out of stock then Calder Ranger is the exact same bird, blacktail and all.
 
I am paicking up my Blacktail girls tomorrow from Waterlooville, not too far from me.
I remembered that they used to be called Calder rangers, and Googled, still a lot of Calders out there, just dying to lay endless eggs!
 
I picked up the girls lunchtime today, - decided to call them Amber and Samba, dear little girls , POL.
They seemed at home immediately, nice and placid, hope to have them soon out and about with the others whom they will be joining in about 4/5 weeks.
 
Lucky you! I must try to get some by the Autumn. ATM my 4 middle-aged and elderly girls are producing a small surplus to our needs, but can't be expected to lay over next winter.
 
There is another problem with hybrids in my view in that they seem to do 10 times as much damage to the garden scratching about vigorously to lay all those clockwork eggs. They are lovely but I prefer to keep a bit more of my garden.
 
Oh dear...now I am confused. After months and months of research I had finally decided upon hybrids as our first jump into chicken keeping and now after reading this thread I'm not so sure :?
 
Of course it's your choice but I would always advise newcomers to chicken keeping to go for vaccinated hybrids, much more reasonably priced and easily available all year round than many purebreds, come in a wonderful variety of colours and often more reliable layers. Each kind lays a different colour or shape of egg so if you get a mixture your flock looks interesting and you can easily tell who has actually laid that day. Many point of lay purebreds aren't available at this time of year because they tend to be hatched in Feb-March by smaller more specialist breeders and consequently 6-month-old POLs are not ready until the end of the summer. Hybrids are good to start with, and then as your interest grows and you get a bad attack of Morehens Disease, you can branch out from there into purebreds if that's what you find you want.
 
Hi Redbarnhens,

To be fair, there are quite a few different varieties that fit the description of 'hybrid.' I have 2 of what most people would think of first - commercial brown hi-line girls. They are boisterous and there’s no way I would trust them to look after that veg and soft fruit patch you were mentioning in your other post! But there aren’t many that you could trust in that way totally and you have plenty of space by the sounds of it to spread the wear and tear.
The Calder Rangers (Blacktails) are hybrids too and mine is lovely - no less energetic though.
Its the price they pay with their bodies (and hence longevity) for the industrial level egg production that’s their main drawback as pets but otherwise they are friendly and bright (if a little mischievous.)
 
Thank you both for your replies.

I think I will stick with getting my hybrids and as you say who knows what will happen a few years down the line!!

My veg and soft fruit patch has just been covered with a huge walk in netted area, so I was thinking of letting the chickens loose in there at the end of the season so they could have fun clearing it for me :D The paddock with the chicken run and coop as at the back of the house in the middle of the paddock. After living all my life in a big city every day here is just amazing!
 
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