Sudden Unexplained Death

[louithom]

Hello
Our mixed flock of 5 happy and healthy birds (1 cockerel, 2 barnvelders and 2 golden lines) has just been reduced to 4 by a sudden and unexplained death of one of the barnvelders. I am concerned that an undetected problem might move onto the other birds. Or maybe it was just something very simple such as a heart attack or the like?
Yesterday when I went down to the coop in the morning the now dead barnvelder aka 'wonky tail' was in the coop - a sure sign she was laying. She did however come out of the coop when I entered their enclosure so I made a check for eggs - there was one barnvelder egg, though it was cold so I assumed it was the other barnvelder who had laid it earlier. I always give the birds a 'breakfast' of soggy layers pellets mixed with a little chicken spice and all the birds were eagerly tucking in - I did though notice that 'wonky tail' wasn't eating with the rest of them but just standing on her own. Our dog was outside of the enclosure and the Barnvelders in particular like to watch her so I didn't think anything of it.
I visited again at lunchtime and again 'Wonky Tail' was in the coop, but again came out when I entered the enclosure. I again checked for eggs and found 2 golden line eggs.
Just before dusk I went down for the third time and again 'Wonky Tail' was in the coop while the others were still out. I lifted the coop lid and saw her sat in the nest box. However on the floor next to her was a soft shelled egg - Barnvelder sized, so I assume that she had laid it. We've had soft shelled eggs before, but not from this group of hens and my understanding is that they can happen once in a while and unless you get them regularly its usually not a problem. However, given her slightly unusual behaviour I made a note to keep an eye on her over the next few days.
This morning she was again in the coop when I took their chicken spice breakfast down, though this time she didn't come out when I entered the enclosure. When I looked in the coop she was standing in the nest box. I figured she had stood up because I'd interrupted her so left her to it.
At lunchtime I went down and took a syringe with me so I could give her some water - I figured if she wasn't leaving the coop she was in danger of getting dehydrated. When I lifted the coop lid she was just lying on the floor dead. About 4 hours had passed since I saw her alive before.
As you can tell I pay frequent visits to the chicken enclosure throughout the day and always give a quick visual check to see that all the birds look happy and healthy. Up until 'Wonky Tail's' slightly odd behaviour yesterday there was certainly nothing visual wrong with her. Even yesterday she had bright eyes, erect and red comb and other than standing away from the others and spending a lot of time in the coop there was visually nothing wrong with her. She did of course though lay a soft egg and I can't help but feel that the two things must be connected.
If I can learn anything from this experience it would be great - its very sad to lose a bird, particularly one so young (she was less than a year old) but its frustrating to not know why she died and whether I could have prevented it by being more vigilant. I especially don't want to lose any of the others so any thoughts/advice would be most welcome.
Many thanks, Louise

 

[chrismahon]

Yes Louithom, chickens do just have heart attacks and die. We've had several. Fine one moment and stone dead the next. But yours seemed slightly unwell before hand. Soft shelled eggs are in my experience, when laid in isolation, due to stress which has many forms -change, bullying, illness. We do have a Bluebelle who lays soft eggs due to lack of sunlight, but that's something else. Was her comb pale, even though she was laying? I ask because it could be blood loss due to red mite which may have prompted a heart attack. Have you checked the coop thoroughly for them?

 

[louithom]

Thanks for your suggestions Chris
We've had problems with bullying birds in the past (with a group of 3 Light Sussex which we no longer have) but someone had told us introducing a Cockerel tends to keep that sort of thing at bay. Since we've had the five birds, one of which is a cockerel, we've had no signs of bullying at all - in fact just this weekend past I was looking at them all and thinking how happy and contented everyone looked - quite a change from our ragged light sussex a year back who pecked out feathers from each other and generally looked such a state.
Equally there has been no changes to their routine - about 1 week ago we did have a tree taken down near their enclosure which involved a morning of chain sawing, but they didn't look particularly stressed as a result of this.
We do clean their coop out once a week and use Poultry Shield. We also douse them with Red Mite powder on a semi-regular basis. Her comb looked erect and as red as normal of late - she certainly showed no signs of anaemia or dehydration - I was paying particular attention to her yesterday because of the odd behaviour. We already plan to give the coop a complete and extra through clean out this weekend anyway, and I'll probably douse them all in red mite powder as a precaution. We worm them regularly and they're not due for a couple of months, but I could always give them an early dose just to be sure.
If it wasn't for the soft egg I would have just assumed a heart attack, but it does seem to be quite a coincidence.
Thanks again for your comment.
Louise

 

[Bertie & The Chooks]

I'm sorry for your loss.

I would say 4 hens to one cockerel is the bare minimum I would have really. It may be that the hen was stressed by the cockerel getting too frisky with her too often. But this is only a theory. I'm sure there are flocks that do fine with one cockerel to 4 hens, but i'm also aware of many that do not. But there may have been something else going on there that just couldn't be prevented. I think I would be wary of having 3 hens to one cockerel though. Is there any reason you require a cockerel are you breeding them?

 

[louithom]

Thanks for your reply Bertie. We got a cockerel as we'd had a lot of bullying problems in the past and were told that a cockerel is a really great way to put a stop to this. We've certainly not had any bullying since having him. We do plan to replace the dead hen as soon as possible anyway - we should perhaps try and do that this weekend to lessen the amount of stress on the other birds. We were actually wondering how much the cockerel bothered the hens as we've never seen him 'in action' so to speak! We don't watch them all day of course, but you'd think we might have seen it at least once if he was constantly being frisky with the hens.
Ironically my husband would love to have at least 4 or 5 more hens, which would possibly go some way to addressing the balance of cockerel to hen ratio - but although we have the room in the enclosure for more numbers, our coop wouldn't accommodate that many. We've really only got space for 5 birds in the coop if we allow each bird the standard 12 inches of perch.
Thanks again.
Louise

 

[chrismahon]

Hello again Louithom. Bredding trios are the norm, 2 hens to one cockerel. We have quartets, in case one hen dies, but we have had 10 hens to one cockerel. The result is always the same, he favours one which is the most submissive/ lowest in the pecking order. She gets trodden ragged and needs a saddle. We have taken three out as each one became favourite and a saddle wasn't enough. Think is was partially to do with the different colours as all the remainders are blue laced and none are favourite. Some cockerels are very placid however and don't bother the hens much -think we have both extremes!

 

[NEWTODUCKS]

Hi,
I had a hen who was just coming back into lay and had been in and out of the nesting box for a couple of days without laying anything. Her cloaca was going in and out as though she was trying to lay. Her comb changed from bright red to deep maroon and died within hours, I'd made her a vet appt but we didn't make it in time. The vet thought it was egg peritonitis where the egg goes the wrong way and into the abdominal cavity causing shock and collapse.

 

[chrismahon]

That's what it sounds like to me Newtoducks. In this case she had just laid though -a soft shell egg for the probable reasons discussed.

 

[Philcott]

I'm sorry for your loss, but would like to say - it would be better to get two new hens so that they can buddy up before they go in with your 'old' gang. Makes the whole process a lot easier. Are you going to be able to keep the newbies separate for a little while to make sure they are not carrying anything health wise?

 

[Marigold]

Hi,
I had a hen who was just coming back into lay and had been in and out of the nesting box for a couple of days without laying anything. Her cloaca was going in and out as though she was trying to lay. Her comb changed from bright red to deep maroon and died within hours, I'd made her a vet appt but we didn't make it in time. The vet thought it was egg peritonitis where the egg goes the wrong way and into the abdominal cavity causing shock and collapse.

Did you notice the colour of her comb after she died, Louise? If it was maroon or purple this is usually taken as a sign of heart trouble. Shge may have been hiding away in the nestbox because eshe felt poorly and didn't want the others to realise and pick on her, also of course it's more restful for a poorly hen. It sounds as if she might have been eggbound and eventually passed her egg, but may have had other internal problems, which combined with the stress and possible pain she was in, proved fatal. It doesn't sound as if she had anything obviously infectious, though, does it, so I shouldn't think the others are at risk. I certainly don't think you need to beat yourself up about her death, though, - as Chris says, hens do die unexpectedly sometimes, even young ones, and you are obviously a very vigilant and caring owner who couldn't have done more for her.
I do agree with Philcott about getting a pair of new ones, if and when you do so. It's always a good idea to keep at least one spare place in your coop, so if a hen dies you then have room for two more. If the cockerel isn't bothering the hens too much, you might want to wait a while before rushing out to replace this bird, because a single new one would have to be kept in quarantine for at least two weeks really, and it is during this time that a pair of new pullets will bond and settle in before taking on the rest of the established flock. Also, it would give time for the others you now have to show you that they are indeed clear of infection etc. Maybe if the coop is too small for another two, and your husband would like more in any case, you might want to re-think the housing before getting new birds?

 

[louithom]

Thanks everyone for your comments - they're all really helpful.
Clearly there are several possible options and I'll never of course know but it's good to know I'm doing everything right and hopefully didn't contribute towards her death. I must confess when I discovered her dead I didn't think to look her over properly to see for any obvious possible causes - if I had maybe I would have noticed that her comb was darker than normal? It does sound like this might have been the most likely explanation.
Points also noted about the reintroduction of new hens too. We shall definitely make sure we get two so they can buddy up, ready to take on the others when we introduce them after their 2 week quarantine. And maybe in the meantime my husband will get his way and we might upscale to a larger coop!
Hopefully I won't find myself in this situation again, but if I am unlucky enough your helpful comments have certainly left me better armed to be more observant with a dead hen which could at least provide me with some answers at the cause of death.
Thank you all again for taking the trouble to offer your thoughts.
All best, Louise

 

[Sue]

Sorry to hear of your loss. I lost my Barnevelder at 9 months last year. She was absolutely fine all day and went to bed as normal, but was found dead in the morning. No signs of illness at all. It does sound as though yours had something more going on than just a heart attack though. I do miss my Barnevelder, they are very beautiful.

 

[Chuck]

Sorry for the loss. The death was not so sudden as the fact that she had spent time in the nest box for a day or two before indicates there was something wrong. However, deaths like this are common and it could not have been prevented. People are more oftern disappointed because they 've paid out on expensive consultations and treatments and still lost them for reasons that will never be known. I do like to have more hens with male, especially one that is young and vigorous but if your male is not pulling them about too much (feathers missing form the back of the head and on the back) then I'd say it's OK. The situation isn't urgent and I'd advise giving a lot of thought to what replacements you'd like, where they'll come from and preparations for isolation and integration when they arrive.
I hope you realise that the situation was beyond your control and hopefully will not occur again for a long time. Best wishes with the new ones.

 

[Aileen]

Oh dear.... can I possibly piggy back onto this post.... I have just come across a soft egg slap bang in the middle of the run, I had one about a fortnight ago and am now concerned that my little chook is poorly as she like you have said has gone very quiet (usually second from top) and this morning isn't interested in their pellet porridge with marmite for elevenses.
Have had a gentle feel and vent area feels soft but baggy / saggy?? Is this the norm? Worried now things will go awry for my girlie, before this happens could I ask for helpful hints..... or should I just leave be and see how she fares over the next hours? She is stood but she is tucked in a corner.....

 

[foxy]

I would see how she goes, if she has just come back into lay she may be experiencing a few laying hiccups. Soft shelled eggs are difficult to lay, they don't just pop out like a hard shelled egg so can make a hen feel quite uncomfortable and this miserable look, a bit hunched is not uncommon.

I would check their diet, ensure only layers pellets and no treats of any kind to ensure your hens getting enough calcium to support coming into lay.

Other symptoms to observe are on-going changes in behaviour, change in eating habits, colour of comb or face, dull or fluffed up feathers.

 

[Bertie & The Chooks]

Elevenses? hehe cute, but probably not necessary as Foxy has said.

As for the feeding Marmite. I would never feed YEAST to a bird that uses their crop to digest their food. Introducing a live fungus (yeast,marmite,vegimite,beer etc) into a body that uses bacteria and acid to digest it's food is not a good idea. Sour crop is not a fun thing to deal with.(essentially thrush/yeast infection of the crop). Yeast will eat all the natural bacteria and make it difficult for digestion and cause and overwhelming amount of fungus(yeast) in the body. This alone could cause digestive and laying problems.

Hope this helps and give her some live yogurt with some crushed egg shell in the mean time.

 

[Marigold]

Completely agree with you about the Marmite, Bertie,- for one thing it's very salty as well as the yeast content - but I don't think anyone was suggesting using it as a supplement, unless I've misread the post?

 

[chrismahon]

Hi Aileen. Think we are all agreed pellet porridge with Marmite is a really bad idea. Your hen may have sour crop as a result. Baggy saggy bum is normal. Hard and big is bad as it's either swollen or fat. How does her crop feel and has she got rancid breath ? What are poos like in the morning?

 

[Marigold]

Your hen may have sour crop as a result. Baggy saggy bum is normal. Hard and big is bad as it's either swollen or fat. How does her crop feel and has she got rancid breath ? What are poos like in the morning?

They should do an edition of Embarrassing Illnesses for hens, don't you think?
I have been known to experience some of those problems from time to time.....

 

[Bertie & The Chooks]

Your hen may have sour crop as a result. Baggy saggy bum is normal. Hard and big is bad as it's either swollen or fat. How does her crop feel and has she got rancid breath ? What are poos like in the morning?

They should do an edition of Embarrassing Illnesses for hens, don't you think?
I have been known to experience some of those problems from time to time.....

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