Sad news....

[Marigold]

I have 7 quail including 2 cream hens, all together in a large cage in our summerhouse. 3 days ago I noticed one of the cream hens was looking a bit tucked up, sitting on her own and closing her eyes. I prepared the small hospital cage for her, but when I returned a few minutes later she looked better and was feeding so I left her to see how she did. I had noticed one or two cream wing feathers moulted in the cage, which was unusual as all these quail are about 5 months old, and that day there were noticeably more, all cream. No bullying goes on, they all seem to be quite friendly to each other so these musyt have been mouilted, not pulled out.
Next day she was looking a bit more tucked up so I moved her to the hospital cage but she was still eating a little and able to walk. More wing feathers falling, and none in the big cage once I'd removed her, so she was the one who was moulting.
Yesterday morning she was much worse, unable to stand without falling over and flapping her wings frantically and also turning her head right backwards on to her back and wings. When I picked her up she was really leaking wing feathers and her wings looked really ragged. She went through a time of panting heavily and then died.
I still thought she might have been eggbound as with the low light levels none of them had started laying yet although I've been putting light in during the evenings, gradually working it up in 10 minute increments until now it is from 3-50 until 9.00. So I did a postmortem but there was no sign of any egg.
Of course she might have boinked and hit her head on the wire at the top of the cage, and maybe had a stroke, but the roof is quite low and fairly safe, also there was no sign of injury and i don't think this would have been linked to moulting.
The other thing I thought of was Mareks. I found out online that quail can get this, and of course she showed some of the symptoms, eg being off her legs. None of the others are sick at present, all running around actively eating well etc. Her insides looked OK to me but my P.M. was very crude and simple, just looking for an egg really, so if there were any lesions or tumours I wouldn't know what to look for.
Today I did a really thorough cleanup with Poultry Shield of the cage, the hospital cage, the cage I pop them into when cleaning out their main cage, and all the equipment, and completely changed all the woodshavings. I do all this every week anyway but this was a specially thorough go, to try to reduce the risk of any viral transmission via feather dust etc. The very experienced breeder I got them from hasn't ever seen anything like this and I'm sure they were healthy when I got them 3 months ago, so if this is Mareks I can't imagine where it came from. I've had all my hens since last March, all healthy, and they've had no contact with the quail, who are in a cage in the summerhouse with the door shut to keep the hens out.
I don't really think it can be Mareks but felt I needed to do as thorough a cleanup as possible just in case it was anything else transmissable, and then keep a careful eye on the others to see if any of them mouilt or look poorly. If anyone has any other ideas about what this might be, I would be interested to hear them.

 

[Katy-may]

Oh I'm so sorry marigold, nothing worse not knowing why died & now the worry for the others. X

 

[Marigold]

Thanks Katy-may - I'm not really worried, I've done all I can and shall just have to wait and see. Not as bad as if it had been one of the hens!
How are your dog and cat? - a bit sore i expect? Also your silkie boy? Are you going to update his thread?

 

[Katy-may]

You were brave cutting her open. Dog&cat fast asleep now, I have had the occasional filthy look from them this afternoon! I keep saying to them £207 you cost me today!! Little boy pekin not happy will update thread x

 

[Bertie & The Chooks]

Oh dear. That's horrible, good on you attempting a PM though. My guess would be parasitic issue(possibly in the brain), brain problems(tumor, tissue necrosis) or aneurism. could have been congenital, parasite induced or trauma. I think you've done the right thing though, have they been wormed recently or are they vaccinated? So sad and distressing for you. Sorry for your loss.

 

[Bertie & The Chooks]

for future reference, this site is brilliant for PM comparisons for internal lesions, abnormalities and malformations. http://www.thepoultrysite.com/publications/6/Diseases_Of_Poultry

 

[Marigold]

Thank you for your advice, Bertie. When I did the pm I was quite surprised because I hadn't thought of anything but eggbinding and I thought that would be easy to establish but there was no sign of an egg. I don't know the first thing about quail's innards but they looked clean and healthy to me, although of course at that stage I hadn't thought of something neurological or viral so didn't look too closely. Somebody else suggested the possibility of Mareks, I hadn't thought of it at first, and by then I'd gopt rid of the evidence.
I don't think it's usual to worm or vaccinate quail, they live comparatively short lives and because they are usually kept in closed cages they are at very little risk of environmental infection like chickens are, out in the open in a comparatively dirty run. If all the woodshavings are changed and the cage disinfected weekly it's hard to see where infection or worms could come from when dealing with just a few quail, not in a commercial setting, and kept inside in a building where there has never been poultry before.

However, on several occasions I have gone on to the internet and decided I was mortally ill and it's turned out to be indigestion so I expect something like that is happening here. We shall see....

 

[podstable]

Sorry to hear about your quail. IF it were Mareks she would have caught the virus within a matter of days of hatching - so BEFORE you got her. As I understand it , several of the Herpes group of virus can cause Mareks. They are exposed to the virus in the first few days of life with no initial signs. This then over a period of months leads to the development of tumours that lead to the signs of Mareks / death in some susceptible birds. SO___ your older birds , even if exposed to herpes virus from contact with your quail-would be very unlikely to develop Mareks. So---even if it was mareks I dont think you need worry re your older stock----I hope that makes sense!! Ros

 

[Marigold]

thanks Ros, that's reassuring, for the time being at least. Would this imply that the ones who were exposed to the virus as youngsters but didn't go down with it were possibly carriers, and thus should not be used for breeding or housed near to young birds? I was going to keep this group of 5 females and a male together in the future anyway, without adding any new birds or splitting them into two breeding groups.

 

[podstable]

Herpes virus which causes Mareks can be carried by adults but will not be passed on through eggs . SO if your bird had Mareks you should be safe (in theory) hatching from the others eggs , but do so in an incubator and keep them away from others (brooder in 'human' house )till they are past age where catching it is a risk. My growers live in a barn till POL and go out for grass on a lawn which is a long way from adults to avoid poss. transmission of things the adults may carry . eg Herpes, coccy etc. This seems to work for me (touch wood) !! IF your birds have been exposed to Herpes as chicks and NOT gone onto develop mareks , in theory, they should be ideal to breed from as 'survivors' of the infection are thought to pass on some degree of mareks resistance -the first stage of breeding a Mareks reistant flock. Ros

 

[Anonymous]

It might be worthwhile to take a dead quail to a veterinary pathologist next time. I did this when I had quails dying during my experiments (I work with quails as a study species as well). A veterinary pathologist might be able to tell you if it was bacterial, etc. (you would have to bring the carcass fresh and not frozen). I was able to do this free because of university affiliations, but it might be worthwhile to check if there is one in your area just in case of next time, or if your dead quail is still fresh it might be an option?

 

[Marigold]

that's a good idea, Katie, thank you. I do have details somewhere of a place you can send dead chickens for autopsy, I expect they would do quail. I'd already decided that if another one went down in similar circumstances I would cull immediately and then send for autopsy maybe. Too late for this one, though, as the dustmen came this morning, and anyway my very amateur pathology didn't leave much to go on!

 

[Marigold]

Thanks for that, Ros. Another query - how would I know if or when they were safe from the danger of developing Mareks? These birds were all roughly the same age, although the 4 brown ones came from a different hatch and were in a different grower cage than the 2 surviving cream ones. I had the browns first and had to wait another 3-4 weeks until the creams could be reliably sexed. If one of them has just died of Mareks, how old would they have to be before I could be reasonably sure one of the rest were going to develop it eventually?
Originally there was also a cream boy in with the cream girls, and at first I had these as a group of 4 in another cage. He was very active but I just found him dead one day, no previous sign of any illness or injury. I've heard that this does just sometimes happen with quail, heart attack or something, is that so?

 

[foxy]

My understanding is that quail are not natural hosts of Mareks, I remember doing research a few years ago..I can go back and check my notes.

It does sound more like a classic neurological disease, with the head turning back more like encephalitis type. I thought for quail that 5months is a bit old to develop Mareks, saying that I know nothing about quail!

 

[podstable]

I certainly don't know what causes sudden death in quail--I am sure the term'heart attack'is probably used for many sudden deaths of really unknown cause! The only one of mine to become an ex-quail so far I am conv inced died of an anaphylactic type reaction to an anti peck spray used on her friend--wont use that on them again.I know its difficult if you are worried re Mareks but maybe you will have to accept it as a death of unknown cause and not worry too much as there is no proof of Mareks .IF it happens again as already suggested have a PM done to give you a definite answer. I had a pm done by an avian vet about a year ago---it only cost about 40 pounds which surprised me. Hopefully the others will all remain well! Ros

 

[Marigold]

My understanding is that quail are not natural hosts of Mareks, I remember doing research a few years ago..I can go back and check my notes.

It does sound more like a classic neurological disease, with the head turning back more like encephalitis type. I thought for quail that 5months is a bit old to develop Mareks, saying that I know nothing about quail!

They can and do get Mareks, thoughI think it's not so common as in chickens, perhaps because most of them are kept indoors in cages rather than in unavoidably comparatively dirty conditions in contact with the ground outside. I found two vivisection studies where laboratory quail had been given Mareks, poor little buggers, for research purposes. However it is quite rare, and I'm quite happy to believe the breeder when she says she has never had a case in her many birds. and this also makes me feel hopeful about the situation. I'm not really worried, it just seems like it would be a mistake to be complacent at this stage and I don't want to make any silly mistakes about quarantine or hygiene which I might regret later. Very grateful to Ros for sharing her experience, thank you, that was reassuring. Also as we all need to understand this disease it's good to get contributions form anyone with experience of it in other types of 'outdoor' poultry.