Rat Problem!

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woodruffsdad

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Today my wife spotted a rat in our chicken run busily eating the girls' food. I thought that our two Bluebelles were getting through it quickly!

Is there any way to protect the hen food from these furry rascals?
 
Bait and trap is what I would suggest Woodruff as you don't really want rats anywhere near where you are going to be touching things due to the disease risk. Google MK4 Fenn traps, very effective,remember to put them under a man made tunnel and be careful with them. You can get treadle feeders that are supposedly rat proof, never had one myself and they seem to get mixed reviews this is the sort of thing http://www.chicken-house.co.uk/acatalog/treadle-chicken-feeder-10-kg-made-great-britain.html
 
Like Dinosaw, we used Fenn MK4 traps set in the rat runs under a ridge tile and outside the chickens. You have to train chickens to use a treadle feeder and balance it to their weight. The process begins with the lid held fully open, during which time the rats will know where the food is and I have heard of them squeezing under the lid to get to it and then being trapped, soiling all the feed in the process. Sure treadle feeders would be OK though if there were no rats around in the beginning. We have two and have never used them. I used to shoot daylight rats with a quality air rifle -Weihrauch HW97K.

Handle rats with gloves on and wash your hands carefully afterwards. I understand rats also carry tapeworm, something that Flubenvet will not kill.
 
The problem I have is that my social beliefs (NOT religious!) mean that I do not want to have any part in killing any living creature, including rats.

I was hoping that there might be a way of targeting the food so that only the hens could access it then my furry friends might go elsewhere.
 
Fair play to you for not wanting to kill anything Woodruff, if that is the case then give the treadle feeders a go and make sure your feed is stored securely at night preferably in some sort of metal bin. I have to say though that by not dealing with the rat problem directly you are putting your chickens health at risk, make sure to cover any cuts on your hands when down in the chickens area, rats are carriers of weils disease, salmonella, e coli and a whole host of other nasties and can breed so fast that you could easily find yourself with an infestation.
 
I understand and share your feelings about not killing any creature, but remember it is also your legal responsibility as a householder to deal with rat infestations.
 
How big is your run mesh, are the critters tunnelling in or squeezing in though gaps? You could try digging in a small galvanised mesh to stop them entering in the first place if on a permanent run, or an electric fence round the perimeter to stop them climbing.
My next door neighbour has rats tunnelling in and climbing into the feeder, but as yet I have had no issues due to a low level electric bungee sound my run and I move it weekly, thus avoiding an opportunity to tunnel. I also only feed in the morning and sweep up any spills and remove food every night.
 
Remember also that rats are incontinent so everything is likely to be contaminated. You run the risk of them gnawing their way into the henhouse and stealing the eggs and contaminating the nest box. As it's normally inadvisable to wash eggs, you're running very high risks of contamination and illness for you and your family - not just the hens.
 
We had what's called a rat flood last year, the rats moved out of the farm up the road and moved in here. we shot over 200 in 10 days, had trained terriers who killed hundreds, poisoned, trapped, bait stationed we did it all, they still killed birds stole eggs, upset birds enough that they moulted out if season, they ate houses, the damage they did is incredible, they also ate through chicken wire , we have had to change to weld mesh on all the runs. Water has to be changed every morning, all feed has to he lifted in the afternoon and pit out again in the morning, no mean feat with 53 hen houses! they are still there ( they always will he now) but one thing is sure, they are dirty, bring in sickness, worry the poultry, and do an amazing amount of damage, if you see one rat there are at least 10 you don't see, breeding up to 100 babies a year per female and able to breed as from 6 weeks !! Revolting creatures in mind :-)06
 
You know I was holding my tongue on this thread because I am a firm believer in not killing anything I am not going to consume........ But vermin which spread disease, kill domestic animals and destroy property have to go at all cost. Poisons are out for me, both for the enviroment and the possibility of innocent kills and illnesses.

Rats are an issue that has to be dealt with quickly due to their rapid reproduction, in town everyone must take action, all it takes it one person to ignore the problem and the rats having a safe haven will never be eradicated. Where we live now the only rat issue we have are wood rats which are few and far between, we have yet to have a single one.
 
My (non religious - I am atheist) view is that we humans interfere in nature far too much. Just look at the mess we have got the world in at present. It soon will not be a fit place to pass on to our grandchildren.

Every living thing on this planet has a purpose. It has a job to do and if Nature is left to get on with its job without interference from us humans the world will thrive, as it has for millions of years until one species (mankind) became "civilised".

Indiscriminate killing of wild creatures is barbaric and counter productive. I do not recognise the word "vermin".

To get back on topic I have taken the following action: I have bought a wild bird feeding station from B&Q. I have just used one of the poles rather than the 3 provided which leaves the "branches" at a convenient height above ground. From the branches I have suspended covered feeders which I am hoping will be just out of reach of my furry friends. I no longer have any feeders at ground level.

There is one other action which I am uncomfortable with but which has been taken by "she who must be obeyed"!

Our hen house is very sturdy and strong and stands within a completely enclosed (chicken wire) run. The run has an outer door which we leave open when we're at home so that the hens can forage in our whole garden. We shut the door at night and when we're not there. The garden itself is completely secure.

The night before last my wife decided to leave the door of the run open so that our cat can patrol in there when we're in bed. The idea was that the smell and presence of the cat would make the rats move elsewhere.

What has happened is that last night and the night before our cat killed a rat on each occasion. One was left in the garden the other deposited on the sitting room carpet!

Because of my social beliefs I am not at all comfortable with this but at least I console myself with the thought that it is a natural occurrence of predator versus predated and does not involve shooting or poisoning.
 
Whilst I'm sure we all share your distaste at killing animals, nevertheless you have a legal duty to deal effectively with a known colony of rats on your land. See the Prevention of Damage by Pests Act 1949, extract below.

Title: Prevention of Damage by Pests Act 1949
Category: UK Law
Date: 1949
Reference: Chapter 55 [Full text not available]
General Description:
The Act aims to protect the community, from the potential health and safety and hygiene hazards caused by various pests, including rats, mice, birds and all types of insects etc. There are two parts to this Act, Part One covers Rats and Mice, Part Two covers Infestation of Food. Under the Act, any person authorised by a local authority, may inspect a premises or site at any reasonable time for infestation. Any person causing an obstruction whilst the premises is under inspection will be subjected to a fine.
Part One - Rats and Mice
It is the duty of the local authorities to:
destroy rats and mice on land which they occupy, and to keep such land so far as practicable free from rats and mice.
to enforce the duties of owners and occupiers of land, to carry out such operations to rid their land of potential hazard causing pests.
Every local authority must keep records relating to such actions taken, with regards to pest control. Land owners and occupiers must inform their local authority in writing if substantial numbers of rats, mice and other pests are present on their land. This is not applicable to agricultural land. Any person who fails to give notice will be subjected to a fine.
With regards to agricultural land, the County Agricultural Executive Committee have the right to order destruction of crops, to ensure the control of rats and mice.
The land owner/occupier is responsible for the control of all pests and costs incurred doing so. If the occupier of a premises inhibits the owner of a premises from clearing pests, the occupier will be subjected to a court order allowing the carrying out of such treatment.
The local authority will allow 7 days notice before terminating pests from any land (occupied or not). All expenses will be recoverable by county court judgement. Where property is unoccupied, it will then be the responsibility of the land/property owner to rid the site of pests.

In other words, when the rats breed, as they will, and begin to spread to neighbouring properties, and your neighbours complain to the Council, the Council has powers to step in and exterminate the rats at your expense. Failure to allow them to do so, or to remove them yourself, could result I a court cae, a hefty fine, and the Council moving in to clear the problem.
I would be very unhappy if a chicken- keeping neighbour of mine failed to deal with an outbreak of rats, as they carry diseases such as salmonella and Weils disease. I had a farmer friend who nearly died of Wiels disease as a result of contact with rat urine in his barns, and took a long time to recover after a long hospital stay. You and your own family are at risk and you shouldn't rely on them staying in control because they will increase fast in the warm weather. The measures you have taken are all good ones, and the cat is doing a grand job, but this won't be enough. I would get some expert advice from a pest control officer and sort out the problem.
The idea of 'Letting Nature get in with its job without interference' sounds attractive, but really, is this relevant in this situation? If you really believe is, why try to protect your chickens from foxes? Wouldn't it be more natural to just leave them out in the garden as lunch?
 
A cat that kills rats is in fact a very rare thing nowadays, possibly because if the cat gets bitten it may invariably die. Whilst I agree with your philosophy Woodruffsdad, I think you must make an exception in this case for your well being and that of everyone around you. As Marigold points out, when the neighbours complain you will be the Council's target and the one with the bill. The council will use poison (cheap and easy) and a lot of other wildlife will suffer as a result as well, whereas you have the opportunity at the moment to target rats only using traps.
 
Red mites for chickens have to be dealt with to have healthy chickens, red mites are an animal.

Rats, fleas, lice and cockroaches all present serious health risk to humans, they are animals as well, do we just ignore them all no matter the health issues presented not just to ourselves and our entire community?

There are things that all of us must take care for the sake of our fellow man no matter how we feel about it, that is why there are laws and why they apply to all.
 
I would agree Nitram, an over view has to be taken in this instance. If we were talking about a stray cat which was pestering the chooks or a hawk for instance, then I fully agree that there would be better ways of dealing with the problem but rats are disease ridden vermin & must be dealt with.
 
Lucylou said:
rats are disease ridden vermin
Click to expand...

Rats are, in fact, highly intelligent, social animals. I do not accept the word "vermin" in the context of any living creature.

One of the definitions of "vermin" in the Concise Oxford English Dictionary is "very unpleasant and destructive people".

In view of the destruction which the human race has inflicted on this planet do you not think that mankind should be described as "vermin"?
 
Well, I have considerable sympathy for this view, in that our species is vastly over-populated and if humankind was able to take advantage of all the modern ways of reducing population growth, the pressures on us and on the environment would be very much less. Sooner or later, there will come a human population crash, whether this be from some new epidemic disease, the effects of climate change on natural disasters or global food supplies, or political revolution and bloodshed. I think that in some ways, the sooner one or all of these happens, the better in the long run. (Of course, we would all want our own families and friends to be exempt!)
However, we have to live with what we've got in our overpopulated country. I agree with you that describing rats, urban foxes or any other creature as 'vermin' is wrong, of course everything has its place in the natural order and rats are, as you say, intelligent and social creatures. I once had a couple of pet rats myself, ex-laboratory ones, and they were clean and delightful creatures. However, wild rats living free in the garden are a different matter. Without abusing or denigrating them, they do present very real health dangers, and as a householder nevertheless one has to obey the law and do one's best to control them. Measures which are designed to 'make them 'go somewhere else' as you suggest, are doomed to failure, in the absence of a Pied Piper, and even if they worked would only pass the problem on to someone else, which I think is socially irresponsible.
So sorry, with regret and understanding of your viewpoint, I do think you will need to take effective measures to deal with your rats. They will be breeding very fast, somewhere near you, and soon you will be overrun, there will be rat droppings and infectious urine everywhere, all over the chicken run and in your garden and also in the neighbouring gardens. Your neighbours will put it down to the fact that you keep chickens, and this is bad publicity for our hobby, as well as bad for your personal relationships. And how would you feel if anyone did get Weil's disease? Sooner or later, you will have to do something, and the sooner you can manage this, the less distressing it will be.

By the way, how's the cat getting on?
 
You might like to consider this, from Hansard from the House of Lords:

Lord Selsdon asked Her Majesty's Government:

Which mammals and other animals are classified as "vermin".[HL4559]

Lord Whitty: There is no definition of the term "vermin" in UK law. In such a situation the Oxford Dictionary definition should be applied.

The Oxford Dictionary defines "vermin" as "Animals of a noxious or objectionable kind. Originally applied to reptiles, stealthy, or slinky animals, and various wild beasts; now, excluding in US and Australia, almost entirely restricted to those animals or birds which prey upon preserved game . . ."

The Small Ground Vermin Traps Order 1958 and the various Spring Traps Approval Orders, refer to "small ground vermin". Neither the orders nor the Pests Act 1954, under which they are made, define this term or provide an exclusive list of species. However, the following animals are listed under various orders: moles, grey squirrels, rabbits, mink, stoats, weasels, rabbits, rats, and mice.

Traps approved under the Spring Traps Approval Order 1995 do not apply to small ground vermin listed in Schedules 5 and 6 to the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. This means that red squirrels, dormice, water voles, shrews, hedgehogs, polecats and a number of other species are excluded.

or this, from a UK Law forum:

There is no legal definition of vermin. Vermin means any species that is destructive or injurious to health.

We are talking about the law here which, sometimes regrettably, overrules any social, cultural, political, religious or other views and beliefs we hold.

Think about how you would feel if a child was bitten by a rat because you failed to deal with the problem, or contracted Weil's disease from coming into contact with rat urine? We don't live in a perfect, ideal world where the species are balanced and haven't done for thousands of years and about the only natural predators of rats in this country are birds of prey and cats. However unlike foxes, they will hardly ever kill wholesale but, as your cat has done, kill one each day.

There aren't many people who enjoy killing things, despite what you read about hunting, fishing and shooting but sometimes it is necessary for the preservation of life on our overcrowded island.

Marigold has researched and found the relevant legislation for you. We're not talking about "indiscriminate killing of wild creatures", this is an eradication of something that could easily become a public health problem.

One last point; have you realised that if it can be shown that it is your poultry keeping which is the source of the problem, you could be barred from keeping poultry at your home?
 
All I would say Woodruffsdad is that living in the UK in 2014, shopping in b and q and using the internet you cannot possibly be holding true to your own views already therefore I don't honestly see why dealing with the rats is such a big deal, especially as they themselves are only around in their current numbers and form as a direct result of human activity, you would in fact be helping to reverse mans impact rather than add to it by removing them.
 
Once upon a time I saw mankind as a cancer upon the Earth as you do Woodruffsdad and I still do. I doubt there will be a world left for the grandchildren -impossible to feed them all and no fuel. But you have to make the best of things now as part of that 'Cancer' and take sensible decisions. We live a far lower Carbon emission lifestyle than you possibly ever could, but we had to relocate to do so. But we all have to compromise to some degree on our objectives or ideals. We still kill rats and mice. Kill the rats before they kill someone else, or you. A friend of mine died of Weils disease which left his partner's life devastated and that has a lasting impact on me and everyone else who knew them. Rats are legitimate targets.
 
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