Mixing vaccinated and non-vac. hens.

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valeriebutterley

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Can anyone please tell me if it is true that it is best not to mix vac. and non-vac. hens?.
If they can be mixed eventually, after about what sort of period?
I want to give my 2 absolutely huge and beautiful Croad L. girls more room, their holding pen is now small for them, and the weather is really not good for roaming just yet. I would have to be out and watching them in the garden, - not on for reasons of a dreadful throat infection (me).
My flock replacements have only been in place for a few weeks, and are great and some are laying, being bought at POL, all are vac. birds.
My Croad girls are not vaccinated, and neither is the Croad chick and the two barred Plymouth rock chicks that will eventually be housed all together.
The chicks were hatched by a vaccinated Pekin bantam. Just looking for all sorts of pointers here.
I have heard the reasons why it is not good to mix v and non-v girls, i.e. the vac. girls are walking, clucking disaster areas for non-vac. girls, and
will give the non-vac, girls all the things they have been vac. against.
Any advice will be so gratefully received on the above, I know it is down to me what I do about any advice kindly given.
In my early days of hen keeping, I did mix and the outcome was not good at all, but it could have been the weather, changes in location, weakened immune systems, etc., etc., etc. all of which were going on at the time, especially the location changes which I know now hens hate.
Just going to wish everybody, Chris, Tyg, Marigold, Sue, Wrigley-across-the-pond et al, a very happy and clucky new year.
 
I know some people have horror stories about mixing vaccinated and unvaccinated birds, and I realise I have much less experience than many people as I only keep a few back garden birds, but I can only say that I've usually had a mixed flock and have never had any problems. Mine have always had a quarantine period until settled in, and I've been careful where I get them from so that as far as possible I've bought healthy stock, which I feel is 95% of the way to success. It's always going to be a risk, buying in new birds, but there are many other potential health hazards to guard against and whatever you do, you can't control all the variables. There is going to be some risk even if you stick either to hybrids or to purebreds, and I feel I don't want to get too hung up on an issue which is actually pretty unlikely to be a problem, compared with, say, importing diseases such as mycoplasma or mareks, which can arrive from anywhere.
 
We're a non-vac setup and want to remain so. We have now integrated the ILT and IB infected birds with the non-infected without any adverse effect. That's over three years after infection and Bottom, our pet cockerel has recently had another ILT flareup, so he is still infectious. You are effectively introducing low level infection when you bring in immunised birds. But ours only had issue with the live vaccine strains -those given in drinking water.
 
This was something I was going to ask as the local rare poultry breeds farm vaccinate their chicks against Mareks. By the time I get round to increasing the flock all my existing non-vaccinated birds will be at least 42 weeks old, but I'm still wary about mixing them as i don't know if they develop natural immunity. I know the vaccines is non-sterilized which means presumably that the vaccinated birds can shed the virus.

I think I've just answered my own question! I'll just have to source non-vaccinated birds.
 
Agree with you Margaid. Don't make it more complicated than you have to. I have read that the Mareks immunisation isn't entirely effective because the strains are mutating anyway. Tiny breeders, as we were, didn't immunise anyway. Didn't have to as the environment they were bred in didn't propagate disease. These diseases only exist because the environment allows them to. The minor things like Mico all chickens may have, but their poor condition allows it to manifest. Mareks seems to be a larger scale breeders problem.

Just be very careful what you import and keep it quarantined -preferably for years rather than weeks.
 
Well in an ideal world all birds would be vaccinated, thus reducing the pathogenicity of the vaccinated disease..ie: the ability to infect and therefore to mutate.

Bear this in mind when considering how much movement of stock is actually happening,sales, auctions and shows.. movement of stock for any reason creates opportunity for highly infectious diseases to take a hold.

Saying all that we do not live in an ideal world so our husbandry has to adapt accordingly, and crucially where we source our birds from is probably the most important factor. One of the key factors is where we source our birds, how they are kept, husbandry and where they get their birds?

There is also the issue of what do you do when you have a bird diagnosed with an infectious disease? More often than not the bird is treated for the acute symptoms then returned to the flock, where being infected with a "field" or wild virus it could infect the rest of the flock, and sometimes this level of infection is not obvious, ie: sub-clincial infection levels but can become apparent in times of stress, typically and unfortunately when the bird is sold on.

So in summary, and this is only my opinion. If a bird is fit and well, I would have no problem in integrating non-vaccinated with a vaccinated flock, however, first signs of a problem then I would cull out unhealthy birds, I know this sounds harsh and I apologise, however in my situation for the sake of the whole flock and any birds I sell on I believe I have a responsibility in maintaining the health of my birds, luckily the instances are rare.

I vaccinate all my birds against the main culprits, I do not bring birds in and hatch all my own stock, my mortality rate is low and the birds are well. I have never had one of my oldies which are non-vaccinated come down with one of the diseases that I have vaccinated against.
 
I entirely agree with Foxy, especially about sourcing healthy birds, as I said in my post above. For this reason I would personally never consider buying from an auction or from a poultry show, not only because of the danger of the birds picking up disease in dirty cages etc en route, but also because I wouldn't be able to see where they came from , how they had been kept, and what the condition of other birds was like. In many cases, you wouldn't even know who had sold them to you and would have no comeback if things went wrong. Also of course, there is the stress factor - moving home is inevitably stressful to poultry, and it's well known that birds are susceptible to disease in the first few weeks because of the effect of stress on their immune systems. This would be made worse by a journey to auction or a show, all the noise and unfamiliar surroundings, and then another journey to a new setup, maybe in the company of other birds that are strangers. This stress can be minimised by buying from somewhere where you can bring the birds home directly, and quietly settle them in to a peaceful pen which is already prepared for them.
There are so many factors involved in importing birds to an existing flock, or indeed starting out with one's first birds, and the vaccination issue is only one of many husbandry and management considerations, in my opinion. I also uphold Foxy's policy of culling where it is necessary for the health of the flock, and if more people were as conscientious and honest as she is, far fewer diseases would be spread around the country to unsuspecting new owners, whether or not the birds in question had been vaccinated.
 
I've kept vaccinated and non vaccinated birds together for years and haven't had any problems. I was mixing them long before I knew there could be a potential problem. I have bought in hybrids here for sale and for myself, all fully vaccinated. Those that I hatch myself, mainly pure breeds, Leghorns, Andalusians, Marsh Daisies and others are not vaccinated. All end up living together eventually, even though they are kept separate in the first instance. None of the males are vaccinated and change pens when breeding.

There is little control of disease across the board with birds changing hands all over the place, including sales at shows and markets and the shows themselves when all stock are penned at close quarters, then go back to all parts of the country. It seems from reading on the Forum, that owners who isolate new stock to their premises are in the minority. Drifting a way from vaccination , I know but just to illustrate that there are plenty of other health dangers other than vaccination.

People get tempted very easily with free birds or take in companions, seldom thinking through the vaccinated/non vaccinated problems often done too quickly to get a warning of any dangers.
 
Many thanks for your replies. It's nice to know that there is help and advice kindly given, out there.
I realise a healthy looking and seeming bird usually is, whether vac. or not.
I think my disasters of last year and the year before were probably down a lot to stress of moving their location, even within the same garden, they did not react kindly at all, and certainly not to new additions to their numbers.
Is there anyone who NEVER has problems with their girls?, or is this a new minefield? My Whitestar replacement - after the fox, died suddenly on Christmas day, POL, healthy looking and growing beautifully, I found her dead in the pen, no apparent reason.
Again, thanks to you all.
 
We had absolutely no problems with our little flock of 6 Orpingtons, 4 Blackrocks, 2 Legbars and an Orpington cockerel until we introduced two Goldstars which promptly infected all of them with the immunisation strains of both ILT and IB. A very stressful 3 weeks of treatment with repeated flare-ups which still continue with the cockerel 3 years on.

We have had more than our fair share of sudden deaths. The mortality rate was incredibly high at one stage in our flock. Many have just been perfectly healthy and happy one minute and found dead the next. At one stage I suspected deliberate poisoning with the number of apparent abdominal infections. Bumblefoot was a problem on the ground to just one side of the Orchard. Then came the fox attacks.Two wonderful cockerels died in the same month and another developed a mysterious 'fungal' attack on his comb which defied all treatments. With the change of environment all our birds are now the healthiest they have ever been. The fungus on the comb just disappeared overnight! They have all feathered up beautifully and are a joy to see -the best poultry collection in France perhaps?
 
Another point to consider when integrating a flock, is that most clinical date on the efficacy of vaccination is geared towards commercial enterprises and actually the long-term data on for example IB (infectious bronchitis) for commercial laying hens is only around 60 weeks, then the antibody "titre" which is the level of protection drops to a lower level and if exposed to a contaminated environment are possibly just as likely to contract an infection.

So if bringing older vaccinated birds into a clean flock then the potential risk is even lower in relation to infecting the existing flock, and something to consider with exbatts, although vaccinated, their levels of protection are probably quite low at that point ( 80 weeks)

I think as everyone else has stressed the history of the new birds, their current environment is probably more important than whether they have been vaccinated or not.

Finally it is a pleasure to hear your birds are flourishing in France Chris! :)
 
Chris, thanks for your posting re. the above.
Gives me hope when I know other loving, caring chick keepers have a few problems as well. Sounds like a rotten thing to say, but don't mean it like that!
I guess it's just chickens are the way they are and appear to give up easily.
I've just had my first ever successful vet "repair" to a pullet, he diagnosed slight respiratory infection and gapeworm, she now seems fine, but where did a soltary infection of gapeworm come from? - no other signs of it.
Your flock probably is the best in France!
Happy new year.
 
I never had this problem as all mine hatched from eggs in my house so I had never had any contact with the new stock.I had 1 unexplained death of adult hen she was 16 monhs old but she went down gradually and nothing I was doing where helping her.When she died I was thinking that she was on the road to recovery.Very sad,but thats just life.All others are very healthy and I had no expirience in sick hen.They just get on with life without any problems.I gues they do not have to much stress exept foxes visiting the garden but I think they learn now that he cant get in to their run so they do not make noise as much as last year.All mine had not been vaccinated.I know some breeds are so prone to one type of ilness that if you do not vaccinate you can expect very high losses eg.Sebright on Mareks.
 
Hi VB. Gapeworm is a diagnosis vets seem to jump to for no reason I can understand. Perhaps it's a vet training thing? Yes, our flocks are so happy here. Makes me think I made the right decision to haul them over here and the £100 a head was worth spending. I only have to shout their names and they stop to listen. They don't have to struggle over the traffic noise. The others just carry on, as most of them recognise their names and know its not them I am talking to. I'm so happy here as well! New enclosure is nearing completion. Problem is to post its construction (unusual though it is) delays me completing it. Pain is returning to UK to keep the house in order as it remains unsold.

Happy New Year to Val and all.
 
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