large eggs then small....

I understand that forums tend to highlight those keepers with problems rather than those without but using my chickens as an example.....

I bought 3 POL hybrids last April from a busy clean large chained garden centre. They had a list of the vaccinations each pullet had been given and a quick turnover. Within a week one of the pullets suffered a severe prolapse and had to be PTS so I returned and bought another 2 pullets. A second pullet lays soft shelled eggs on an almost daily basis (or delicate eggs when given oyster shell) and a third lays the egg in the photo roughly once every 2 weeks. So the only two hens I have problems with look fit and healthy, are both hybrids, both fed the same food as the other chickens, and are only a year old. The unvaccinated pure breeds (touch wood) are fine and have no problems whatsoever.
 
I would respectfully suggest that a garden centre isn't the best place to buy hens, or indeed any kind of livestock. It's worth seeking out an experienced breeder, who knows something more about keeping poultry than the average garden centre employee, who is selling hens that are settled and healthy and haven't been exposed to the stresses and possible infection involved in being passed along to an intermediate holding centre. You may well pay a few pounds more, but will save this in vets bills and untimely replacements.
 
The egg shell side -effect was documented in a study paper on the virus, together with the transmission distance of IB. 1500 yards in the wind they said!

Quite agree about forums amplifying the scale of problems. We have a local breeder with hundreds of birds and we appear to have had the same number and variety of problems she has had but only have 30 odd birds. Just unlucky I guess.

PP is running an article on Mareks and includes vaccination. They conclude to vaccinate results in the birds becoming carriers and able to infect the unvaccinated. So add Mareks to ILT and IB as potential illnesses from hybrid introduction to a Pedigree flock.
 
Interesting about the paper on shell quality, thanks.

I wouldn't put your local big breeders healthy flock down to luck, I'd be wanting to know why her system was working. Much simpler, uncompicted feeding regime I'd guess.

I would like to know if the live vaccines are having a worse effect in infecting non vaccinated birds. I'm still having both on the premises, though I don't know whether they have had live or dead vaccine. Some are in the same pen, some are in seperate pens but if it can be transferred airbourne, it's a wonder they haven't been infected.

There was a time when the Ministry of Ag. would have been investigating this.
 
In infectious bronchitis the virus acts in a systemic fashion, infecting and damaging other organs in the body, typically the kidneys and reproductive organs. This damage becomes evident at POL, where misformed, rough shelled eggs are laid or no eggs laid at all. These birds may also be prone to other problems later in life due to involvement of immune system and reduced kidney function.

To vaccinate or not is a personal decision, depends on your stock situation, whether your birds travel to shows etc...I vaccinate all my chicks and have no worries about mixing non-vaccinated and vaccinated birds.
I am more concerned about wild virus or "field virus" spread through birds seen at auctions, sales, shows etc..which is highly pathogenic and causes real health issues to a flock.
 
Foxy, I was interested to read your post regarding not being worried about mixing vaccinated and unvaccinated birds. I had decided that I wouldn't be able to introduce any more new birds to my existing birds because they had suffered from Myco and IB (and are all vaccinated). I wouldn't want to go for vaccinated birds again as this seems to make them less healthy for some reason (I'm not really a fan of vaccinations of any description), but didn't think I could introduce unvaccinated birds because they would be at risk of catching the Myco and IB (and anything else my current birds are vaccinated against). Having lost 2 birds in 12 months from unknown causes I'm reluctant to buy new birds in just to put them at risk. Am I totally wrong in thinking this?
 
Very interesting last post Foxy. I have had about six last year in two batches of growers that at first appeared more immature than the rest and didn't lay at the same time as their contemporaries. A couple of months later still not laying, so culled. No sign of abnormal shell quality though in the ones that did lay.

I'd be very interested to learn about your vaccination regime as I've always believed it was too complicted/expensive for smaller breeders of which I'm one and assume you are too.
 
Chuck said:
Very interesting last post Foxy. I have had about six last year in two batches of growers that at first appeared more immature than the rest and didn't lay at the same time as their contemporaries. A couple of months later still not laying, so culled. No sign of abnormal shell quality though in the ones that did lay.

I'd be very interested to learn about your vaccination regime as I've always believed it was too complicted/expensive for smaller breeders of which I'm one and assume you are too.
Click to expand...

I vaccinate day olds for Mareks (sub cutaneous injection) then at 6 weeks for Mycoplasma,(spray) then finally Infectious Bronchitis(spray/water). The only expensive vaccine is the vaccine for Mycoplasma, I think it is around £40 per 1000 units. Mareks is only £9.00 ish, can't remember the IB off the top of my head, think around the same price as Mareks.

You just have to prepare well, keep the chicks separate from adults until antibodies have developed which I expect you do anyhow Chuck. I have a fact sheet I will email to you later.

@Sue..it is a difficult one to consider. I don't have any diseases here, however I come across so much when visiting shows etc and have experienced a Mareks outbreak in the past. My non-vaccinated birds are all old now, so bombproof as well as the fact none have ever presented with needing treatment for infections. This may sound harsh, but I rarely treat my birds and cull any non-thrifty poultry and only breed from older, stronger birds. This means that now the strain has developed into what I consider a strong and healthy line. Every breeder does things differently however in their rearing, and I am probably no exception! :D As you know sue I have a scientific background and immunology was one of my areas so this does help when I making decisions on breeding and rearing.
 
Hi Foxy. Do you know of any books that cover this, and other areas. I know there are plenty of books on keeping chickens in general, but are there any for those that might want to take it a stage further from the 'few layers in the back garden'?
 
kegs said:
Hi Foxy. Do you know of any books that cover this, and other areas. I know there are plenty of books on keeping chickens in general, but are there any for those that might want to take it a stage further from the 'few layers in the back garden'?
Click to expand...

"The Chicken Health Book" by Gail Damerow is a good start, although aimed more at poultry keepers in the US, it does have couple of good chapters in the beginning. Do you have that one Kegs?
 
Yes, I've got that one. I'm trying to find something that covers smallholdings/poultry breeding/genetics..... maybe you need to write a book Foxy?
 
Well we have had about half a dozen eggs since March - most soft but a few relatively firm. None for the last month. frustrating.
 
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