large eggs then small....

[Morricl]

Good morning, my 12 month old Warren has always laid large rather thin shelled eggs - grit didn't make any difference. 3 weeks ago she stopped laying although laid one weeny egg. Yesterday she became withdrawn and still and appeared to be dying. I gave her a thorough examination (not that I'm very good at it) and could find nothing wrong. We gave her water out of a syringe but she wouldn't eat or drink really. She suddenly laid a small egg (on the patio) but sitll appeared frail and deteriorating. I put her in the coop - bit later I found she had laid a shell-less egg and she made an instant and remarkable recovery. We have had hens for a year now and out of 7 - 5 have died. We worm, use Poultry Spice, cider vinegar, Vermex, clear redmite etc. Three of the others died of prolapses which I think was bad luck.

Any ideas what could be wrong and how to restore her - she is fine this morning - although her feathers are dull and not shiny. Don't want to lose another

Many htanks

 

[Marigold]

Like other hybrids bred for maximum egg production, Warrens are subject to egglaying problems as they age, although at only 12 months yours is quite young for this to happen. Usually they start to fade after 2 years, maybe 3 if kept in domestic conditions without all the pressures to lay continously all winter under extra lighting etc. Certainly sounds as if she was eggbound, and that clearing out the second egg was a relief to her, doesn't it? I've had similar upsets with my previous hybrids, who several times appeared at death's door one day and fully recovered and bossy the next. But I did find that, once they started laying thin-shelled or membrane-covered eggs, they didn't get any better despite calcium supplements etc. I expect that softies are harder to push out than ones with good shells so more likely to get stuck in the system. which must be very uncomfortable. You mention grit - does this include crushed oystershell?
Were the ones which died of prolapse from the same batch as her, ie also quite young? Maybe, as and when you do get new stock, you might consider either purebreds, which will give you fewer, maybe smaller eggs but over a longer period of time, or less intensively produced hybrids. There are quite a few around now which are intended more for the domestic market than for commercial production, and these may live longer and healthier lives. But nothing is certain with chickens!

 

[Sue]

Hello Morrici, what do you feed your hens as part of their normal diet?

 

[chrismahon]

Hi Morricl. We have a Bluebell that is now laying eggs so soft they crack on the way out ----and so is she I think! She is a 'domestic' hybrid as Marigold would say. All our hybrids though have had problems and short lives, despite everything. They are just egg laying machines with a design life of 18 months after all. On the other hand our 5 year old very laid back Blue Orpingtons are laying well, in the same coop with the same feed and grit. Lovely eggs, strong shells but half as many as a hybrid. Some highly strung Pedigrees have problems as well. We've lost 3 of 5 Cream Legbars to stress related illness.

Its really down to coop and run space. Hybrids lay like mad for a short space of time and consume feed to match their production. Our Orpingtons lay half as many but seem to eat half as much. So if you had room for two coops and stocked them with Pedigrees you would get the same number of eggs for about the same feed but wouldn't have to replace you birds so often. Will add Wyandottes can be a 200 eggs a year breed and Leghorns even more (but combs are subject to frost damage).

 

[Morricl]

Hi Marigold, I think we have just been unlucky. We started with three x 2 year old Warrens a friend gave us – two died of prolapses and one got ‘flu’ and died, but they did last about a year.
We replaced them with 3 x 16 week old Warrens (because they are so friendly and tame) and 1 died within a week of a prolapse (the supplier replaced her), and another died after having a cough at about 6 months. We only have two left! Will consider purebreds in future. They are totally domestic non-profit making pets – who just so happen to provide us with eggs! They have little stress and no pressure. Think I’ll become a chicken!

Hi Sue, they are fed layers pellets with poultry spice now and again. They have sweetcorn for a treat. They have the odd tomato or grape but not regularly. They don’t seem to like treats.

Hi Chrismahnon, I had no idea they only had lifeexpectancy of 18months – or is that egg life of 18 months. They have a run of 20’ x 5’ and a portable run to go on fresh grass and earth to dust bath in when weather good. Are you suggesting not mixing Hybrids and Pedigrees? I know you shouldn’t mix different ages. We cannot have two runs or coops, just don’t have the room. Would either have to mix or start again for the 3rd time…………….

 

[Marigold]

I have 2 hybrids (Silver Star + Amber Star,) a Cream Legbar and a Buff Sussex, both 12 months old. All have always been very healthy, and the hybrids show no sign of keeling over just yet (at 16 months old, still got another 2 months to go, though!) My friend has an ageing flock of birds up to 5 years old, all hybrids, most of which lay now and then, and all enjoy life still. I think Chris has a slight tendency to gloom about hybrids in general, as I know he's had some unfortunate experiences with them in the past, but if you get good stock, give them the right conditions from the start, and accept that maybe they will use up most of their eggs perhaps a year earlier than purebreds, you should certainly get considerably more than 18 months of productivity from hybrids. If egg production isn't important to you, then you are free to choose any kind of pretty purebred that takes your fancy, but since most of us do like our pet hens to be productive as well, you need to enquire carefully whether purebreds come from a good egglaying strain, or are all fluffy bums, topknots and whatever, with a few little eggs now and then if you're lucky!

 

[Morricl]

Hah hah Marigold - you are so right - productive pets. I am a really keen cook and love cooking cakes, quiches, pies, breakfasts etc with our home grown eggs. It is really satisfying, but our bird mortality rate is appalling. We always had hens and ducks when I was a kid but my father's attitdue was much more prosaic - the ducks were bred to shoot anyway - about 100 of the poor things. I get upest when our flock diminishes and so if these two go, I want to get it right next time! I live in a vey rural area and know some specialist breeders - we just went for hybrid Warrens because we thought they were good layers. Eggs, beauty and longevity required. Not much to ask for.

 

[Philcott]

I wouldn't mix hybrids and pure breeds, as the first are vaccinated and the latter seldom are. I am speaking under correction, but depending on what sort of vaccine was used, the birds shed the virus and any that have not been vaccinated can pick up mareks and the likes. I'm sure there are others on here, who are more au fait (sp?) with that side of it.

Pure breeds will lay as many eggs as the hybrids, just over a longer life span. My little RIR bantam that died last week was about 7 years old and was still laying up until last November.

 

[chrismahon]

Just to qualify my earlier statement Morrici. Commercial hybrids are slaughtered at 18 months, so what happens if they live after that is of no consequence to an egg producer. That is the time of their first moult and will therefore result in a sudden drop in egg production. With limited space they can't afford 'passengers' so they are all replaced with 21 week pullets, keen to lay. So in developing the breeds they are not concerned about longevity, just maximum production for minimum feed in their single egg laying year. Marigold is right about my well founded gloom towards hybrids as we have had pretty poor experiences so far. Our best died of a heart attack, the four Black Rocks had abdominal infections, one has swollen feet, one went cannible, another ate her own eggs as she laid them and the remaining is the aforementioned Bluebell.

Not without risk to put Pedigrees in with hybrids as Philcott says. The hybrids could shed immunisation viruses and infect the Pedigrees. Having said that they are older hybrids and should be more stable. Worst case is introducing young hybrids to a Pedigree flock which promptly get very stressed and shed their viruses, which is what happened to us. Result was simultaneous IB and ILT to all the birds, expensive in medication and very stressful for everyone. Some have not fully recovered 3 years later. We now run two separate flocks -infected and not.

 

[Chuck]

Warren type hybrids will lay for four years at least in non intensive conditions. Even the ones that come out of battery cages will often lay for another two years though at a much reduced level. While there is a tendency for them to live a little less long than some of the pure breeds, a lot of the pure breeds will not keep a family in eggs and certainly show rejects will not fit the bill. Most of the problems/ilnesses that are reported to us on the Forum at the moment and recently relate to pure breeds and not hybrids !!
Good utility pure breeds are available but you need to search them out and often need to be prepared to travel. Some of the bigger producers may vaccinate. Worth remembering too that some of the pure breeds are very inclined to go broody unlike the hybrids
There is also a good variety of hybrids which have been created for back garden use in a variety of plumage colours and egg colours.
I have mixed vaccinated and unvaccinated birds for years and never found a problem.

 

[Morricl]

Yikes I didn't know any of this - Phil, Chris and Chuck. I thought she had recovered. She is her usual self and has laid 2 eggs this week. However I just checked and there is evidence of her laying a non shelled egg in the nesting box. I have no idea what is casuing this. We will just wait and see what happens.


How do Hybrids shed immunisation viruses? I don't understand but would appreciate a lesson! 07

 

[chrismahon]

In times of stress Morrici they have a recurrence of the virus they were immunised with. So they were inmmunised by giving them a live virus and infecting them. These are viruses within a specific group which will develop antibodies to protect against all the strains in that group but are of a weak strain themselves so it doesn't kill the bird. So ILT results in sneezing which spreads the virus. IB results in coughing which spreads the virus. Of course they all use the same drinker which is how they give them the viruses in the first place, in the drinking water. They used to spray them into the coops at night but not all birds were infected by that. The viruses can (but don't always) mutate as they are passed on, so some birds would become very ill when they were infected second-hand.

So typical stress triggers would be change of environment, travel , encounters with other new birds, illness of another type, first lay. Their tendancy to 'shed' the virus, get a reoccurrence, diminishes in time. So after 12 months IB will not be shed, but ILT can be shed up to two years after and we have some that get it after three years. So putting Pedigrees (which are generally not immunised) with old immunised Hybrids is far less likely to cause problems than doing it the other way round, young Hybrids into old Pedigrees. This is the way most keepers go -start with hybrids for eggs and then get something more interesting later. Funnily enough we started with Orpingtons and introduced Black Rocks which were not immunised. So the Black Rocks caught ILT and IB as well when the Copper Stars arrived.

 

[Marigold]

The breeder I get my birds from says only dead viruses are used in vaccination nowadays and although he does sell some bought-in hybrids he doesn't have any trouble with them infecting his stock of home-grown purebreds. But then he has all his birds running on outdoor paddocks in good conditions. I think it's possible to over-emphasise this problem, and though my experience is limited I've never had problems when mixing unvaccinated and vaccinated birds. You can import all sorts of problems when buying new birds but it's one of those areas where the minority of problem cases get all the publicity and most of the time people like me just get on OK with their mixed flock.

 

[chrismahon]

Just to add to Marigold's comment. Dead viruses used to be used on an individual injection basis. Live viruses are used, and have been for the last few years, because they are faster to administer and much cheaper for larger flocks. Live viruses are used for ILT and IB in large flocks and added to drinking water. I checked this with the supplier of our last Hybrids.

Perhaps we were unlucky. I just don't want anyone else to be that unlucky. At least if there is a problem after introducing new hybrids it will have been anticipated.

 

[kegs]

Just to add to Marigold's comment. Dead viruses used to be used on an individual injection basis. Live viruses are used, and have been for the last few years, because they are faster to administer and much cheaper for larger flocks. Live viruses are used for ILT and IB in large flocks and added to drinking water. I checked this with the supplier of our last Hybrids.

Perhaps we were unlucky. I just don't want anyone else to be that unlucky. At least if there is a problem after introducing new hybrids it will have been anticipated.

Would that be why so many new keepers seem to be having problems with hybrids laying soft egg shells in the last couple of years?

 

[Chuck]

My understanding too was that they were innoculated with dead virus but that of late, many were going over to the live virus due to wase of application and cost. However, if problems continue to occur, I think we may see some return to the old ways so that hens for sale to hobby keepers will veer away from those reared for commercial use. An example of this was de-beaking which was carried out less severly, if at all for those hens destined for the home market, simply because it was not acceptable to the purchasers. There are plenty of breeders/rearers around who are very conscious of the considerable slice of their busuness which is hobby keepers.
Worth remembering too that livestock breding can at times be unpredictable and some batches even though of similar breeding, can vary a lot and some do not perform up to expectations. This also occurs in home bred chickens whether bred for production or for show.

 

[chrismahon]

Hi Kegs. Thin shells and spots/ bumps on the surface are a by-product of IB virus I think. Can affect some hens but the only two we have had are Hybrids -Bluebell, who arrived having had IB and ILT as part of her innoculation programme and Annie Blackrock, who developed thin shells and spotty eggs after catching ILT and IB with all the others. None of the Pedigrees showed any deteriation in the shell quality. If you look at shells in the supermarket you will see the lumps and spots I mean.

 

[Chuck]

Hi Kegs. Thin shells and spots/ bumps on the surface are a by-product of IB virus I think. Can affect some hens but the only two we have had are Hybrids -Bluebell, who arrived having had IB and ILT as part of her innoculation programme and Annie Blackrock, who developed thin shells and spotty eggs after catching ILT and IB with all the others. None of the Pedigrees showed any deteriation in the shell quality. If you look at shells in the supermarket you will see the lumps and spots I mean.

I'd need to see hard evidence before I'd accept that vaccination had any influence on shell quality. I have bred hundreds of layers over the years out of hybrids and pure breeds, none of them vaccinated and still flawed shells appear, mostly on a temporary basis but the majority occurring in old age.

 

[Marigold]

i think this is just the result of there being such a huge (and welcome) growth in the numbers of new keepers in the last few years, many of them with no previous background in keeping poultry, who in many cases perhaps have unrealistic assumptions about how long a hen can be expected to go on laying a perfect egg every day, year after year! Another example of how we always hear about the problems on a forum such as this, rather than the relatively boring success stories of people who just enjoy largely trouble-free hens kept in a common-sense regime?

 

[Chuck]

i think this is just the result of there being such a huge (and welcome) growth in the numbers of new keepers in the last few years, many of them with no previous background in keeping poultry, who in many cases perhaps have unrealistic assumptions about how long a hen can be expected to go on laying a perfect egg every day, year after year! Another example of how we always hear about the problems on a forum such as this, rather than the relatively boring success stories of people who just enjoy largely trouble-free hens kept in a common-sense regime?

Nicely summed up Marigold. 17