Introducing new girls to our single ex-batt

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GemmaEllen

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So its been a while since I posted on here (See below links for previous posts) But I need some advice (or,. probably, just reassurance!) about introducing new babies to a single ex-batt.

We lost our darling ex-batt Gracie wednesday just gone, which was earth shatteringly painful given all we've been through with her. Needless to say, I was a wreck.

Maggie - her beloved sister - has been left behind and, since we knew Gracie had been getting ready to leave us since Christmas, we'd made plans to get a couple of new babies fairly quickly, so Maggie wouldn't be lonely for long.

Bless her, she was always a very considerate girl, and Gracie left us (peacefully of old age, in her sleep, snuggling with her sister) 2 days before the local farm released their fresh batch of POL for sale. So Saturday morning, we armed ourselves with a cat box, jumped in the car, and headed out to choose 2 new friends for Maggie.

after much (!) deliberation, we picked a gorgeous little Maran Cuvree, and a darling little Black Rock. The Maran we named Rosemary, or Rosie for short, and the BlackRock is PepperPot, which I can see being shortened to Pepp or Pots!

They are both very calm, docile birds, and were picked on the basis that they were the most curious and brave during our time picking them out. They handle well and are nice and quiet, and seem to have adjusted to our little coop set up nicely.

The problem we have, is Maggie.

Poor darling has had her world turned upside down. Not only has she lost her sister, Gracie, but she now has 2 interlopers in what was supposed to be her home. Naturally, she's agitated and stressed out.

We have split our run into 2 at the moment, the coop as well, giving the new girls the pop door and the ramp, and the run surrounding it. Maggie has the other half of the coop and the rest of the run further down, kept away from the babies by a sheet of chicken wire, so she can see them (and peck them if they get too close, it seems!). (This means we have to let Maggie hop out of the side door of the coop, and pop her into her part of the run separately, since there is no access.)

Maggie and Gracie used to sit under the coop together so I feel bad for taking that space away from Maggie now, but we've made a little sheltered corner for her which will have to do at this point. Space is a bit of a premium!

We did try and put them together on the saturday. This was a bad idea as Maggie went for them, pecking and kicking and making a terrible racket. The babies were spooked and went back into the coop to hide.

My concern is that Maggie seems to want to get out of the run the whole time - calling and rattling up and down the chicken wire if she see's us. Is there anything I can do to calm her and help her through this? How long should I keep them apart but visible?

I have to admit, I'm utterly useless at this whole thing - I hate watching her call for me and I hate seeing them fight. I feel so sorry for all 3, and just want them to be friends already, whilst simultaneously missing my darling Gracie.

Any thoughts on this would be amazing- I've trawled through the internet for ideas but most talk about integrating into a flock, not just one, spoiled feather-baby.





Previous posts if you want to get to know my girls...

http://poultrykeeperforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9013

http://poultrykeeperforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9035

http://poultrykeeperforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9072

http://poultrykeeperforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9458

http://poultrykeeperforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10001
 
hi GemmaEllen,and welcome back. I'm sorry to hear about Gracie, but she was a very lucky hen to have such good care with you, and a peaceful end.
Yes, introductions can be painful to watch, especially if your hens are much-loved pets and few in number. Also, its always harder to introduce a singleton, or to add two new ones to a single older hen. However, you just have to steel yourself and let nature take its course. You have done well to separate them, and should continue to keep them apart for at least the next two weeks. This is partly to let the new girls settle down and get used to new surroundings and routines, maybe a change of food, and to start to eat normally - I always find my new POLs are inclined to take a while to get used to feeding satisfactorily. If this happens, don't pander to them, just provide the food you will expect them to eat, and so long as its OK for Maggie they will get used to it when hungry enough. If you offer them all sorts of titbits they will come to expect this and you'll be making a rod for your own back. An extra two weeks will also let them mature a little more, which will help make them more confident and so less likely to be bullied. they may even come into lay during this time, depending on how old they are ATM.
However, the main reason for separating them is quarantine - they have come from a farm with a different set of biological cultures, and although this in itself may be perfectly OK, it's possible that either they may be carrying a virus or a bacterial infection which could transfer to Maggie, or that they might not be fully resistant to some bug or other which might be on your premises. The stress of moving to a new home is enormous, however lovely the new home is, and this in itself lowers their immune systems until they're fully integrated, so they need that time apart. It's common for apparently healthy birds to go down with an infection within a week or so of moving home. Ideally, you would keep them totally separate from your other bird(s) but as this isn't possible, the measures you've taken will greatly help.
When you do eventually think the time is right to let them meet Maggie, you need to go down after dark, when all of them have roosted and are fast asleep, and then pick up Maggie and put her alongside the others in her normal place in the coop. They will then sleep together, get to smell the same, and emerge together next day when they're ready, which is much less confrontational than just putting them in together in daylight. Yes there will be chasing and pecking, keep an eye, but don't intervene unless blood is being shed. They will sort themselves out in a day or so. It will help to have two or more feeding stations and drinkers, and also a higher perch than Maggie can fly up to, if your run allows for this. The POLs will be able to take refuge up there for a bit of a rest if they need it. I expect they will be bonded as closely as Maggie was with Gracie by that stage, after being kept together for a couple of weeks. Ideally you should be able to let them out in the garden as the space would also help, but at the moment this is only possible if you're in a low risk area for bird flu. (See post in Chickens Health section about bird flu for DEFRA map showing which areas are still under lockdown.)
Good luck, the new ones sound lovely and everything will be OK. When you've done it once, the next time won't be so bad!
 
Hi Marigold, thanks for posting. :)

I, too, am grateful that Gracie's end was peaceful. She's been so much slower and quieter since christmas, and the cold seemed to bother her quite a lot. I did wonder if it was her scar tissue (from the dog bite way back in 2014) that hurt her when it got cold? We even resorted to putting them in our spare room on the nights that got below 0 degrees, as she really struggled and would shiver. I got her a hot water bottle (the large, 2 litre kind with a fleecy cover) and would leave it in the run, underneath the coop, when I left for work. she would cuddle up between it and Maggie and chirp happily.

I miss her excited 'food' noises she used to make too. She would sometimes make the same noise when she saw me coming with I loved. <3

Everything seems a little better today (tuesday) - the babies are settling in nicely and I'm beginning to see their personalities. Rosie is the smallest but she seems to be the bravest, and a little more vocal than Pepper, who is still quite jumpy. They are eating their way through their food (mash - the same as Maggie gets) and seem quite happy with it! They've discovered grass too, as it grows in a little corner of the run, which was fun to watch. Rosie even accepted a blade of grass from my hand earlier, which was very brave of her!

Last night was the first night they put themselves to bed in the coop, too. Maggie had already been put up to bed as she always goes up early, so I was a little uncertain whether they would go up, but 5 minutes later, they were both trying to share the same nesting box (Just like Maggie and Gracie did when we first got them!) So I was pleased. I'm not going to bother training them to use the roost if they dont want to. I've poo picked every morning since we first got the girls and its no trouble.

Maggie seems calmer too. She's not so desperate to get out of the run at the moment, and has stopped pacing the chicken wire divider. They stand either side and preen feathers quite happily.

I'm hoping that means it will be a little easier when it comes to putting them together, although I'm steeling myself for the fights! (I'll just put Andy on watch duty - he's better at leaving them to it than I am!)

They do seem to keep walking through their water bowl though - and I came home to it tipped up this afternoon. I re-filled it and put a couple of bricks underneath to raise it up a bit, so will see how that goes.
 
Hi GemmaEllen, glad to hear it's all going so well. It's hard when a much-loved bird dies, isnt it? You were right to get Maggie some companions ASAP though, and I think it sounds as if the new girls are helping you, too.
If they're already roosting together, the quarantine issue isn't relevant, so it would probably be OK to let them emerge together in the morning and see what happens. Maybe do this when you're not going off to work on your next day off? The new ones have the advantage of numbers and youth, even if Maggie gets a bit feisty at first.
It's good to raise any kind of water container, to the level of the chest of the smallest bird, because as you say, the water gets messy if left at ground level. However, as they're making things worse by walking in it, you might consider investing in a top-filling galvanise drinker with a sleeve, e.g, https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eton-Poultry-Galvanised-Traditional-Drinker/dp/B003XLH2CM/ref=sr_1_14_m?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1487144160&sr=1-14&keywords=poultry%2Bdrinkers&th=1 or similar. These last a lifetime, and are really good value. You can get cheaper plastic ones but these usually have to be filled upside diwn and then turned over, as they don't have an outer sleeve, which sometimes means you get drenched with cold water, no fun in winter.
 
Morning!

We took out the chicken wire saturday morning, and let the girls roam the run together. After our first attempt I was worried that Maggie would beat them up again, but although she did peck them and chase them a little at first, they sort of settled down. I guess keeping them apart but visible for the week helped out? either that or Maggie was so pleased to get her run back she decided to play nice?

The babies are doing OK - they run if they think she's going to peck them (which she does, from time to time) but they mostly mooch about the run together quite happily. there is the occasional squark but its going well!

Bedtimes are interesting. the three all squeeze into the nesting box! (it was originally 2 but we took out the divide so Maggie and Gracie had a bit more room) It works for now, since the new girls are still small, but I'm not sure what will happen when they get full sized!

When is that, by the way? just wondering when we should expect our first egg! (it will be nice to get eggs again)
 
Also, We are concerned about flying once the girls are allowed out again. Since the babies are so light I'm very concerned they will fly onto the fence. Our neighbour has 2 dogs which dont take kindly to birds in their garden, so I would hate for them to go over. We've not had the problem with Maggie (and Gracie) since they are old and dont bother trying to fly. I know you can clip wing feathers - what does that do exactly? would you recommend it for our girls?
 
Hi GemmaEllen, There are two main ways of clipping wing feathers - one is to trim the flight feathers (the biggest ones that extend the furthest) back to the edge of the next layer of covering feathers. I did this with mine and regretted it - because they can still fly pretty well and it really spoils their looks. Took 2 years before they finally moulted their flight feathers and got new ones. The second way, that I haven’t tried but I believe would work better, is to just trim one flight feather on one side. They will be unbalanced in the air and wont get very far. I’m not too keen on this either as it would also affect them when flying up to perches and generally flapping around (I would think.)
However, sopping them flying up onto a fence is easy in my experience. If you put some brackets (or anything that is reasonably robust and protrudes out by 6 or 8 inches) onto the fence posts at top then suspend a line white string across the brackets along the length of the fence it will really put them off. They are very good at recognising flimsy things that wont support their weight and are generally cautious when launching themselves up to a hight. Birds don’t approve of flappy bits of string at the best of times!
That said, when the string wasn’t there, mine would regularly fly up onto the coop and then onto the wall but, despite the neighbours being full of tasty delights, they seemed to consider it 'out of flock bounds' and would just walk along the top pinching the grapes. Better safe than sorry though with a dog over there.

They should start laying at about 18 weeks. They will start 'crouching' when you go to pick them up a week or so before.
 
If you do clip the flight feathers as Rick suggests I would like to point out that you trim one wing only as it will defeat the object if you trim both as the chicken will still be balanced and able to fly. I have never heard of the method of trimming just one feather, but don't imagine that one less feather would throw them off balance.

If you google clipping or trimming flight feathers there are instructions and videos of the process readily available. If you go too far you will draw blood.

Good luck
 
3441sussex said:
If you do clip the flight feathers as Rick suggests I would like to point out that you trim one wing only as it will defeat the object if you trim both as the chicken will still be balanced and able to fly...
Click to expand...

Ah! That would explain why it didn’t work! - Well, they didn't have quite as much lift! :)
But a fringe of weakly supported chicken wire or a single length of string should put them off trying. Nothing they could get tangled up in though if they did go for it.
 
How old are your pullets at the moment? Before they come into lay, you will find they crouch under your hand, hoping you're a cockerel, as Rick says, and also their combs will develop and begin to go red, and they will begin to inspect the nestboxes in the day time.
If they were mine, I would definitely train them to perch at night and not sleep in the nest box. You'll get cleaner eggs when they come into lay if they're not laying them on overnight poo from 3 hens, and as you say, things will get overcrowded with 3 in a box when they're fully grown, especially on hot summer nights. Just go down after dark for a few nights and lift them up on to the perches to sleep. After all, this is the natural way for birds to sleep, they have evolved special muscles in their claws which hold on to a perch when they sleep, but nowadays most chicks and young birds, also exbatts are raised in a barn or roost on the floor of a shed before being sold, and need the chance to learn this. Perching lets more air circulate round them, and they have less risk of getting messy as their droppings fall to the floor instead of the hen's sleeping on top of them and inhaling fumes.
Once they come into lay, they settle down and seem to stop wanting to fly over high fences, they recognise their territory and usually keep within it. The exceptions are birds with Leghorn in their breeding, and some bantams, who do like to fly, but yours should be OK. I tried clipping wings on my first pullets but found it wasn't very effective and it took years for the feather stubs to be properly moulted. Take Rick's advice and all should be well. However, do you know if your area has any foxes? If a hen could fly out, a fox could easily get in, and we have had many sad stories of a whole flock being killed in a minute or so, even when the owner was out in the garden with them.
 
Sorry for the late reply! had some trouble with our internet!

Our 3 girls are best of friends now, and I've not seen any pecking for weeks. Pepper and Rosie follow Maggie around pretty much everywhere, and she seems content with her new siblings now.

On the advice of this thread, I cut Rosie and Pepper's flight feathers - which was far simpler than I had thought it would be (thanks youtube!) The hardest part was catching them!

We kept them in the run for another week, and finally (FINALLY!!!) let them out into the garden to discover free-ranging on saturday.

It went great, and they both loved every second of it, with only Rosie attempting to fly onto the top of the coop. Once she realised it was harder than she remembered (the lack of flight feathers did the trick!) she jumped right down and went back to eating grass with her sisters.

I spent some time out with them, digging over the flower bed and they were very curious - getting in my way to 'help' and gobbling down worms. Pepper, in particular, enjoyed the worms and would hardly let me dig, she was so intent on getting them first!

I think it was a good experience for them to be around me too, and they are far more comfortable around me now because of it. They still don't like being touched too much - although Rosie seems less bothered than Pepper - and whereas I could just pick up Maggie and pop her into the run when it was time to go in (she's very happy to be touched and often falls asleep on my lap!) I had to coax the other 2 in with blueberries and mealworms!

And then, amazingly, Sunday morning, as if in thanks, Pepper gifted us with her first egg!! Its was absolutely TINY - but perfectly formed. I've yet to crack it open yet as I wonder if the first few are any good? should I be feeding them back to her? She laid another yesterday too - exactly the same. Am I right in thinking they will get bigger as she does?

Rosie still shows no sign of laying - she's still very much a pullet, with pale face, teeny comb and wattle, and narrow hips. I doubt we'll get an egg our of her for a while!

Anyway, they free-ranged with me in the garden all day sunday and I'm officially 'best mum ever' for letting them. Thanks to everyone who gave advice!

Marigold, I'm still figuring out what to do about their sleeping arrangement. I poo-pick each morning as I let them out, so there's no trouble with dirty eggs and the like, but I would prefer them to have more space - especially, as you say, once summer arrives... I'll see how they get on.
 
IT sounds as if it's all working out really well, success all round. You've gone to a lot of trouble to settle gem in, and I'm glad Pepper is now in lay. Yes her eggs are fine to eat, and will steadily get bigger over the course of the next few weeks.
The free ranging sounds lovely, too - but I wondered if you'd checked the bird flu DEFRA map, here, http://www.gisdiseasemap.defra.gov.uk/intmaps/avian/map.jsp to discover if you're in an area where it's safe to do this? Just input your postcode and enlarge the map to find if your address is in a restricted area. It's very frustrating, I know, but if like me you're in a high-risk area, then legally, even people like you and me with a tiny flock are supposed either to keep their birds under cover, or in an enclosure covered by netting to keep wild birds out. There's a long thread about bird flu in the Chickens Health section if you haven't seen it yet.
http://poultrykeeperforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10045
 
Hi Marigold,

Yes - I knew about the bird flu free ranging ban and we'd kept our girls in the run for what feels like ages! the ban in our area was finally lifted the other tuesday so all good now. (Thankfully!)
 
Lucky you, I'm so glad about that. The restrictions don't seem to have much rhyme nor reason to them - as far as I know there haven't been any more cases reported, and the Spring migration is now in progress in the opposite direction!
 
Just a quick update - both girls are laying now, and Rosie's eggs are slightly darker in colour than Pepper's so its easy to tell which belong to who.

The three are inseparable now, and Rosie has become as friendly as Maggie - stomping all over me and quite comfortable to be picked up and moved if she needs to be.

Pepper is still very timid despite being middle hen. Is there any way to help her trust us more? She's happy to accept treats from our hands but darts away quite quickly, and will never let us get close enough to pick her up. I sit with all three as often as I can and always make sure not to make any sudden moves around her. It worked for Rosie so I'm a little lost about what else I can do?

Thanks in advance :)
 
Hi GemmaEllen, glad to hear that allis going so well. I think hens just have different personalities, like people, cats and dogs, and although some may become tame enough to pick up easily, many (most?) just don't enjoy it. You've done really well to get the others to trust you enough to come close enough for contact, and maybe, in time, Pepper will feel the same way, but as you know, there's no way to get there except quiet patience and treats!
 
Thanks Marigold,

Thats what I thought, but was hoping there was a cheat! :) She's a lovely hen - they all are, but I do feel better knowing I can pick them up if I have to. It makes it less stressful if they get ill and we need to help them, and it also has helped if there is anything dangerous about. I remember back at the barn (which was very open and foxes used to roam) I was working in the garden with both girls 'helping'. The owners cockeral cried warning and chased a fox out of the courgette patch. Because my girls were so tame, I was able to just pick them both up (one under each arm) and put them in their coop. I then had to run round the garden herding the others into the run whilst Speckie (Spectacles - named after the black markings around his eyes when he was a chick!) chased the fox away.

Since we dont really get foxes near our garden now I guess its not a problem, but I think the idea is ingrained in me still. But, like you said, I guess its just time and patience!

I hope your girls are doing OK - are you still under quarantine? how do you keep them from getting bored?
 
Yes, it's still officially a high risk area here, but I can't think why. It doesn't actually make any difference to mine, as I keep them in a large roofed aviary- type run all the time anyway, and bring them fresh greens etc every day. It's dry and sheltered in winter, shady and cool in summer, and they have never had any redmite or parasites which might have come in if they had contact with wild birds. They have long perches that they use a lot of the time to look out down the garden and see what's going on. They all seem happy and keep healthy, lay far more eggs than we can eat, and I know they're safe. I don't have to shut them up in their coop at night and release them in the morning, in fact I leave the pophole open all the time, winter and summer, which is easier for the keeper and gives much better ventilation in the coop, and as a result, none of them have ever had any respiratory disease.
 
sounds like a great set up! I'd love to have something like that, but our garden isnt big enough to hold a large run. Which is why we let them free range in the garden when we are about (Evenings and weekends) Although they've got what they need in the run they have, I like to let them roam about a bit more when I can. They seem to enjoy it and it means I can interact with them a bit more. Although our run is completely enclosed (and dug in) we still shut the pop door. I dont really know why, other than its become habit? I'll probably leave it open a lot more in the summer. ventilation but also so that they can head out when the sun comes up early.

We are still having a little trouble with the watering system as Rosie keeps knocking it over - even though I've raised it up higher and moved it away from the wire (they like to run up and down the perimeter when they see me coming)

Since we've tried one of the metal waterers before and had no luck, I'm looking into an alternative that wont get kicked over, but also wont get full of sand, pebbles and bird poop!
 
Hi GemmaEllen,
Sorry to butt in but I have a hen like that too - she has a very weak 'crouch down' reflex and dislikes being picked up so its not easy to catch her. If I make a habit (and effort) of picking her up every day then she quickly gets used to it and it gets easier but, of course, it doesn’t happen every day and she slips back into being difficult. Another of mine likes being picked up in cupped hands facing me and will sit like that without a worry for as long as you like.

The best drinker I have had is a plastic one that hangs a few inches above the ground on a string and hook. The plastic moulding is transparent, allowing algae to grow, and has cavities that make it difficult to scrub clean - so is not ideal but it never spills and never has any bits in it from the floor.
The ones that fix to the wall or wire, Eglu style, should be good as well but I'm not sure how easy they are to detach. The hanging drinker just unhooks to clean and refill and hang up again.

Just one more thought though you probably know this and I don’t pretend to be a black belt at Hendo :) If they don’t like being picked up and/or in order to give them a proper look over/ cut nails etc, do persevere with the one hand under, legs between fingers technique (from front or rear, other hand cradles around to make them feel supported.) When they cant get away by kicking and flapping they quickly settle down and get used to it (Chicken thought: 'I didn’t escape but am still alive! - maybe being caught by this human is not so bad after all!) The worst thing is having them get to know that struggling gets them free as they will try it every time (Chicken thought: 'Phew! I escaped and would otherwise certainly have been eaten!') Try not to restrain their wings if they are going for it as they can pull a muscle trying to flap and get in a real panic - just confidently keep their legs between your fingers and move them away from your body so they have flapping room for a moment. Easier said than done!
 
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