hello, new user needs advice

hi marigold, here is the link
http://poultrykeeper.com/chickens/frequently-asked-questions/what-size-run-chickens.html

we let our birds out of their enclosure earlier and they had the best part of 3000 sq ft or 278 sq metres to play in (thats 75 ft long x 40 ft wide) this can become a permanant solution for about 9 hours a day even longer once the nights draw out.

on those calculations at 4 sqm per bird i could have 69.5 birds (not that i would though ,as i think 15 will be more than enough.

we are quite fortunate with our allotment in that we can almost do what we want obviously within reason, the maximum amount of birds permitted is 20 so long as they cant venture into other allotments.

now ive a full understanding of the space needed per bird we can comfortably accomadate 15 by allowing them a free run of the plot so thats a good thing.

so i feel another 4 or 5 birds will be fine as they all have more than adequate space to roam around in.

one question one of you could answer is how many birds can a complete house and run of 8ft x 4ft take, working on the 2 sqm per bird rule, that would be 1 bird, the reasons i ask is that i have seen many triangular shaped house/runs of that size that claim to be able to take 8 hens, im inclined to believe that its just advertising blurb.
also i have one of these that originally housed our guinea pigs and im planning on raising the 5 chicks in it in the garden, until they are large enough to go to the allotment.


kind regards simon + colette
 
Thanks for that link, how strange that I couldn't find it! Anyway, your lucky hens obviously have lots more room than that, and there will be plenty of space for more when you are ready for them. Is there a fox problem where you live? The trouble with enlarging a run is the increased opportunity it gives to predators - (you just can't win sometimes, can you?)

There are some coops with small attached runs on the market which claim to be suitable for unfeasably large numbers of birds. The number of birds given usually relates to the coop size, ie how many can comfortably (or uncomfortably) roost in the coop. Run size is something different, of course. 8 hens in 2 sq, metres is definitely advertising blurb, as you say! Coops with attached runs may be good for keeping the birds safe, especially at the beginning and end of the day when the birds are still active but the fox may be about, but are usually too small to keep them in all the time if it's never possible to let them out to free range in a larger space. It's under these conditions that chickens get stressed, fight, feather-peck, and generally lose condition through lack of exercise and boredom. And of course it depends on the size of the chickens - tiny Serama bantams at one end of the scale, Brahmas at the other - and their temperaments. Some hybrids have been bred to be very docile and to tolerate close confinement in commercial conditions, but some are much more feisty and restless if confined.
 
hi again marigold, there was a couple of foxes in the fields about 1/2 a mile from our allotments, fortunately though they haven't been seen for the last 8 or 9 months as the local farmer shot them (thank god!).he has a variety of livestock that needs protecting.

its not foxes that are the problem on our allotments its rats which unfortunately at this time of year cannot be contained, personally i take care of them at night once the birds are in bed , i use an air rifle with a red filter on it, this method keeps them at bay, it dosen't help when another plot holder has very bad poultry hygiene ie leaving the food in bags on the floor next to their pen and leaving discarded tit bits that the birds haven't eaten, although in her defence all her birds are ex battery hens so at least she is doing something right.

she has been told but still does it, ive shot 7 in the last 6 months so at least im doing my dutie of keeping vermin at bay, the problem is they have wised up to traps and rat poison has become ineffective.

one thing i was wondering is can quails be kept with chickens? i was just thinking about the woman on our allotments and thinking if she were to obtain some quails then maybe they would eat whats left on the floor, im just thinking out aloud really.

as far as advertising too many birds for such a small house, i really think this needs to be addressed by the authorities as its not only cruel but surely its in breach of the advertising rules.
 
I haven't used a polythene incubator but have always wodered how you would keep them clean. Some chicks will stay 48 hrs inside it and even if you cover the floor, it would be still harbour infection. I also don't know how you'd adjust humidity.
The best way to increase stock is to buy them in reared as it costs a lot to rear them on a small scale but if you want to hatch for children, then you'll be prepared for the extra cost. Surplus males are a big problem so you need to consider this and most will need to be reared for several months until you know that they are male. Autosexing/sex linked would help as you could tell at hatching. Your Croads might go broody ( I don't know if they are a broody breed) but it is unlikely that your hybrids will but you can sometimes buy/borrow broody hens. Be sure to read all you can about hatching/rearing before starting. e-Bay hatching eggs can be as much of a lottery as any other auction.
 
hi chuck, thanks for the advice fella, we only want to do it the once so the children can experience the hatching part.
the croads are very broody (although not for the last 3 months, i presume due to moulting). ive just had a call from my wife who is at her friends house to say a friend of her friend has 3 chickens to give away as she failed to inform her landlord and has to get rid asap, im not sure of the breeds but i know 2 are bantam type, grey with feathered feet and the other is a light sussex? so i'll find out more tomorrow as its late now.
ive now found a 'wanter' for the excess cocks anyway, he's on our allotment and says he will have them for the table, at least they will get some quality of life before being dispatched is that the right thing to do morally?.
 
At least the cockerels will get some life S+C. Autosexed are killed at hatching, most others when they show at 8 -16 weeks, so to get to 26 weeks is relatively good. They start fighting amongst themselves rather seriously after that anyway. Hen keepers generally overlook the fact that for every hen there is a dead cockerel, so you considering their quality of life is credit to you.
 
If you can find homes in the pot for your cockerels, this is an excellent thing to do as they have a good quality of life and end up doing some good rather than just going to waste. You might think about hatching a dual-purpose breed in that case, ie one that does lay quite well but also the males develop large enough for meat. There was a thread on here recently about dual-purpose breeds, and people could advise you on this. .
As the incubation project is going to be a one-off (but just you wait, you may well get hooked...) you could consider either borrowing or hiring a small incubator, or buying secondhand. Anyway, before you decide, have a look at Brinsea Mini Advance incubators at http://countryfayre-countrystore.co.uk/incubators-hatchers/brinsea-product-range/brinsea-mini-/cat_69.html This range of incis will take 7 hens eggs for the versions with automatic egg turning and up to 10 for the Mini Eco version which comes in at £56.99 from CountryFayre. This compares well with polystyrene ones from e-bay I would think, and it's fan-driven for ventilation and has humidity control. Brinsea are an excellent maker with good customer service and guarantee for new equipment. I have a Mini Advance which does turn the eggs and it's beautifully easy to see inside the dome when the chicks are hatching, just the job for sharing with kids. (Have a look at this post about my baby quail hatching, you can see the inci in action there. http://poultrykeeperforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=5755 )

re quail + chickens - no, that one isn't a good idea really. First, the hens would probably attack and even kill the quail. If they didn't the rats would get them. Also although you can keep quail in an aviary with other suitable birds such as budgies etc, which are not ground-feeders and fly around in the top of the aviary, the floor daoe need to be kept clean, the quail can't exist by eating dirty rubbish though they will pick up bird seed dropped from above. I'm just beginning to keep quails and I'm finding it a steep learning curve, they do have quite different needs to chickens. If the lady on your plot can't manage basic husbandry like putting feed in a bin, quails would make the situation worse I'm afraid. Could you report her to whoever runs the allotment site? there must surely be something in the lease aboiut not creating a nuisance, ie vermin, by poor hygiene.

I'm glad the farmer got rid of those foxes for you, but be very aware that others will inevitably move in, and unless you have really good high fences, well dug in to the earth all round, possibly electric fences as well, and preferably roofed runs, your birds are definitely at risk. The breeding season is coming up, foxes have to feed cubs as well as themselves, and hens are an easy target. I'd just hate to read one day that a fox had got the lot as they don't just kill one at a time, they kill all of them and then try to return to get what they couldn't carry away at first. I'm sorry to say that several people on here have had devastating losses in this way. (Eg see Chrismahon's thread 'Weve been lucky so far' running in the General Chickens section.)
 
Just though I'd mention having read Marigold's post that if rats are present IT IS AGAINST THE LAW not to have in operation an effective pest control system. You can report whoever to environmental health for prosecution. The nature of the system isn't specified but they will be required to demonstrate their system. So obviously one mouse trap with a bit of stale bread on it will not suffice! Neither is someone claiming they come from someone elses property, because if they are on their property it's their problem as well.
 
Hi marigold/chris,
sorry for the delay in replying, im back at work now so less computer time.

all ok on the rat advice, i will have a chat to her at the weekend and give her some of my poison (obviously not to be used in the run) and explain to her in a bit more detail about vermin infestation so that should sort out the problem.

well after trawling the net last week ive taken the plunge and built an incubator, its very smart even if i say so myself it has adjustable heat/light and a circulation fan (looks a lot more professional than those ebay ones), its been on since sunday night and the temp has stayed at 37.5 degrees, as far as humidity goes that will be achieved through a soaked sponge placed in a deep dish and monitored through a digital humidity gauge.

it is on a table in the under stairs cupboard as this is the only place where a) our 2 y/o cant get to it and b) it cant be affected by the central heating system.

we have totally disinfected everything with brinsea disinfectant and have bought six 'buff orpington' fertile eggs from a seller on ebay who has excellent 100% feedback, so they arrived today, everything is ready but we are waiting the advised time of 24 hours before placing the eggs on their polystyrene packaging (egg shaped holes to allow for standing up) and placing within the incubator.

the turning is to be done by hand, by allowing the eggs to sit on the bottom half of the poly packing it should just be a case of place the top half on the eggs and flip them 180 degrees 3 or 4 times a day, ive seen a lot of incubators that either turn the eggs on their side (rolling) or swinging similar to a babys cradle, what is the best method ? surely the 180 degree one would be better?.

well wish us luck and if all goes to plan i will post the results on here 3 weeks tomorrow.

thanks again for the help and advice

regards simon + colette
 
Marigold
further to your bit on foxes, fortunately the site is surrounded by a 6ft wall all round, and my plot has 6ft high wire mesh fencing all round that's buried 1 ft deep, also when the birds are in their run the are quite safe as the mesh panels are buried 2ft down with additional ground spikes (6" nails) driven down every 4" so its effectively 2ft 6 in the ground and 6ft high with a wire mesh roof all over plus the addition of the first 12ft of roof and north facing side (over the 'coup' and feeding area) covered with 6x4 sections of marine plywood to allow them shelter from the wind and rain, the western side has our 6x4 shed positioned there so they are sheltered from about 90% of wind and rain.

the floor area surrounding the run is very hard compressed soil which is soon to be 'decked' with pallet timber so the foxes have a zero chance of entering there.

as the birds are more pets than livestock we take their welfare and security very seriously, what annoys me with these so called 8x4 'arks' is that they can cost in excess of £300-£400 and have very little security yet i built my run out of 2x2 tanalised framing timber and 50 mm wire mesh plus the marine ply for less than a half of the above costs, it just shows the mark up people are charging, and of course since mr oliver and mr whittingstall started to show just how good it is to keep poultry every tom, dick, and harry seems to have got on the bandwagon and the quality of these 'arks' is absolute c***.

it really winds me up lol.
maybe i should start making my own versions and charging sensible amounts instead of these rip off merchants.
rant over.

have a nice shrove tuesday and enjoy the pancakes, im off to cook ours now with fresh eggs.

simon
 
Hi S+C. Don't be too critical of UK coop manufacturers, they have to make a profit. With all their overheads and labour costs I don't know how they do it sometimes.
I always advise people to half the capacity claimed on the coop and to build their own run. Nest boxes is also a big failing -too few and fights develop and eggs get dirty or even broken, which can cause major problems. I aim for 1 box for 3 hens, so our 8 hen coops have 3 nest boxes and the 10-12 has 4 nest boxes. Problem is worse with hybrids as they all want to lay first thing in the morning in my experience.
Hand turning eggs is fine, but wash your hands thoroughly. Losses from infection will always be higher with manual egg turning, rather than semi-automatic or fully automatic.
Free ranging is defined as 15 square metres per bird.
 
Gosh, your run sounds amazing! I'm glad you and the chooks can sleep easy in your respective beds and coop, unlike any hungry and frustrated foxes!

Also very interested in the inci, it's great to hear from creative people and I bet you really enjoyed building it. Do keep in touch as the incubation goes on, especially if you do any candling part way through. How are you going to control humidity? Theres another thread on here ATM about the dangers of over-humidifying and many people actually rely on the humidity present in the air rather than adding water before the eggs begin to pip. It sounds as if you are going to keep the eggs in the polystyrene bottom of the eggbox, apply the top part and then turn them like turning out a sandcastle? In that case you won't need to touch them, will you?
When you stop turning the eggs, do you then plan to remove them from the eggbox and put them on a non-slip surface for the chicks to hatch?
It would be interesting to see some pictures of the incubator setup - and also of your home made coop and run, there are quite a few threads on here about equipment and housing that people have made themselves.
 
hi marigold,
the idea to control the humidity is to add water to a dish with a sponge inside and monitor it using the digital humidity gauge.

yes the idea is to use the 2 halves of the poly transport box, that way as you said they wont need to be touched, but just to be sure we have a bottle of hand cleaner, the type nurses use in the hospitals.

on the 18th day the plan is to apply a jay cloth to the base of the incubator and rest the eggs on this, that way once they have hatched all the mess can be scooped up and discarded as a whole.

i will add some pictures within the next 3 weeks, am i allowed to add them on this thread or do i need to put them on a specific part of the site.
 
chrismahon said:
Hi S+C. Don't be too critical of UK coop manufacturers, they have to make a profit. With all their overheads and labour costs I don't know how they do it sometimes.
I always advise people to half the capacity claimed on the coop and to build their own run. Nest boxes is also a big failing -too few and fights develop and eggs get dirty or even broken, which can cause major problems. I aim for 1 box for 3 hens, so our 8 hen coops have 3 nest boxes and the 10-12 has 4 nest boxes. Problem is worse with hybrids as they all want to lay first thing in the morning in my experience.
Hand turning eggs is fine, but wash your hands thoroughly. Losses from infection will always be higher with manual egg turning, rather than semi-automatic or fully automatic.
Free ranging is defined as 15 square metres per bird.
Click to expand...


hi chris, i was being more critical of the ones advertised on ebay and some garden centres which use timber which is on par with the cheap and nasty stuff found in b + q and the like, the type that when the wind blows it snaps!, these are knocked out and mass produced in large quantities very cheaply but sold on at extortionate prices.

i went to our local country store yesterday and saw some made from quality shiplap timber that will last a long time, they werent cheap but the build quality was so much higher than in some i have seen.

as far as nest boxes go, at the moment i have 3 but the birds will only ever use one and the other two are untouched, yet they are all together, ive never had a problem with the hens breaking the eggs which is a good thing, went to retrieve the eggs yesterday evening and found 7 eggs all in a neat pile, not bad from 10 birds.
my neighbours have around 20 birds and are only averaging 4 or 5 a day so we must be doing something right.

oh well off to work i go
cheers simon
 
Hi Simon. That's why I said UK manufacturers, which on the whole I think are very good for the money. The ones you refer to are Chinese imports. I know because I've spoken face-to-face with an importer. Givaways are the construction methods and the timber. You can't give them away second hand. We have seen some fairly good units at our local Agricultural Merchants -need a bit more attention to fittings though.

Have you got curtains in front of the nestboxes -see 'Our Mobile Coops' where they are made of Wilko car mats cut into strips ? We find that the nest boxes are all used, although one or two are favoured. Once I've stopped a dispute and put the other hen in another box they will then use any of them, as they realise they are all the same. Sealing the nestbox lid is an important detail.

7 eggs in a pile is going to promote broodiness come Spring. If they do get broken the egg eating starts. It only takes one with a slightly softer shell.
 
It's not unusual for them all to use the same nest box but it can be annoying as sometimes the eggs get broken which can turn to egg eating. If you come across any china or rubber eggs, I'd get one to put in the boxes that are not being used, sometimes encourages them. You certainly are doing something right to get that many eggs.
 
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