hello, new user needs advice

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simon+colette

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good morning group, ive just joined the forum in the hope i can get a few questions answered.
my name is simon and together with my wife colette, we have 10 birds at present, 6 lohman browns and 4 croad langshans, we have an allotment and our birds are very happy there as they have a vey large run (24ft).

once we become established on the group i will add a few photos.

we have just doubled our allotment size due to obtaining the plot next to us and wish to expand our flock but are not sure which path too take ie cock - ferilisation - incubation, or poultry auction - 3 day old chicks - brooder box.

there is a poultry auction near to where we are in 2 weeks time, i have a number of questions to ask and moderators if im posting this in the wrong section please accept my apologies.

ive read that one cock can serve many birds but if we go down the route of obtaining a cock so the eggs can be fertilised how would i know which eggs are fertilised and can the fertilised eggs still be eaten as my chooks are averaging between 6 and 8 a day, so in a week i could have 54 eggs but of course not knowing which are fertilised and which are not will be a problem and i really dont want to throw away good eggs as this defeats the object of keeping them.

if i go down the 3 day old/auction route these are the questions im stuck on.

1) ive seen 3 day old chicks advertised, are they likely to be sexed prior to auction? and if so how long do they need to stay in their brooder box under heat?

2) what would be the best time (in weeks) to introduce them to the other flock and will they need seperating for a few days to avoid bullying?

3) ive seen brooder boxes advertised that are quite expensive but on the other hand ive seen them made out of plastic boxes with a light in them to provide warmth, i was thinking an old large aquarium would be suitable what are your views?

4) are there any breeds to avoid that will not live happily with my flock?

5) if we do take the cock - incubation route how long are the birds fertile for and does the cock need to be kept seperate apart from the when doing its business or can he be left in with them at all times?

im really sorry for such a long post but ive kept birds for a few years but ive always bought them at point of lay so this is all new to us and we dont want to get it wrong.

really looking forward to being part of the forum and im really hoping that i can learn some valuable advice from its members.

very many thanks

simon + colette
 
Good grief Simon and Colette, so many questions in one go. Auctions are bad news, good way to dispose of bad stock,, birds are not sexed unless they are an autosexing breed, you will therefore have excess cockerels to dispose of and you can't integrate them until they are strong enough to stand up for themselves which I think is when they lay at 21 weeks plus. That also solves feed issue as on growers to point of lay, layers pellets after. Heat to at least 6 weeks subject to outside temperatures, so may need heat just at night for a while.
You can eat fertile eggs (all ours are fertilised) and you can leave the cock in with the hens, but a few may get overly trodden. Think we have decided an electric hen n any box will serve as a brooder and is cheapest route. thay need daylight and nightime after 1 week.
Wyandottes and RIR's can be feistly but that's just my experience. I would get a Croad Cock and breed them if the hens are laying well. Plenty of places to advertise or look for one -start with registered breeders for best stock.

P.S. i've just noticed you say you already have 10 large birds in a run 24 ft on your allotment - what is the other dimension? Bearing in mind that chickens need a minimum of 2 square metres of run space each if they are not able to be let out into further space for free ranging. 24 feet is about 5 metres, so the other side would need to be at least 4 metres to be OK for the birds you've already got, and it would not be a good idea to add more un;less the run is larger than this. Overcrowding will lead to stress, feather-pecking and bullying, especially when new birds are first added to the flock.
 
Hi Simon and Colette, and welcome to Poultrykeeper.
I'd agree with Chris about not buying from auctions, especially young chicks. Chickens get stressed by changes in their circumstances, even if you buy them from a good breeder, take them home quietly, and give them peaceful surroundings when they get there. Birds that have travelled to auction have to withstand transport, a day in a noisy market with few facilities, another journey to your home, and then a new place on top of that. They may pick up diseases from other birds at auction, and in any case, stress makes chickens more likely to go down with problems they might have resisted had their immune systems not been lowered. Young birds under about 16 weeks are particularly prone to coccidiosis (there is a recent thread about this in the Chickens Health section whihc might be useful to you.) And as Chris says, breeders tend to get rid of surplus stock at auctions and keep their best birds themselves (well, you would, wouldn't you?)
If you want chicks, there are quite a few autosexing breeds available, ie ones you can tell the sex when the chicks are very young by different feather colours and patterns, eg Cream Legbars, and also some that are sex-linked, eg Buff Sussex, which are the result of a cross between a gold cockerel and a white hen of suitable breeds. We have an expert on autosexing breeds posting on here, ie Philcott, so if he doesn't pick up in this thread you could P.M him. Otherwise, if you buy young chicks you will inevitably finish up with cockerels, probably more than 50%, that's the way it goes.
Whereabouts are you? People might be able to recommend good breeders in your area where you could go to see and choose your stock, examine the birds, see what conditions they've been raised in, and see the parent birds. This is especially important if you want to choose breeding stock, not just a few hens as pets and for eggs. I don't really know why anyone would want to buy initial stock from an auction, when a good breeder will not only supply birds, but plenty of advice and help, and will be there for you if anything goes wrong (unlike at an auction.)
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
 
hi chris and marigold,
well thanks for the advice, very helpful, i can now see why auctions are not such a good idea.

im in south devon just about 6 miles south west of exeter.

i would much prefer to visit a local breeder as like you said, the help and advice is there.

the more im looking into this the more im thinking of investing in a cockerel and let nature take its course, i have the room and facilities to segregate a broody hen as i can partition off some of their run, but would i need to take the chicks home and nurture them there or could i just leave them with their mum as nature intended?.

i really cannot afford to purchase an incubator and there seems to be many pros and cons which ever way i choose, but the natural way seems best.

one last thing, are the chickens fertile at any time or is there a set season/time of the month etc?

very many thanks for acknowledging my post im learning all the time.

regards simon + colette
 
Bless you Marigold - thanks for your vote of confidence! I had a wry smile at the word 'expert' - not by a long chalk :D

Hullo Collette and Simon - autosexing breeds are very good in that you can tell when they hatch, if they are male or female. But of course - the question remains what do you do with the boys? Are you strong enough (mentally) to dispose of the birds, because you sure as heck can't keep them all!

Personally, I think you need to decide why you are wanting to increase your flock - if its for eggs, then go for young pullets that are off heat - but that in itself is going to cost you money, as you will need to feed them for quite a long time until they come into lay. It's lovely hatching chicks and very addictive - but if you are wanting birds just for eggs - I would go with the off heat chick or pol.

I echo what others have said about auctions - don't touch them with a barge pole. You don't say which area you are from, but I am sure that later on in the year there will be plenty of us who would be willing to sell you young pullets.

If you would like more information about the autosexing breeds, have a look here - http://www.autosexing-poultry.co.uk

I see you have posted since I started this post - what I will say is if you decide to go down the hatching route with a broody, you will need to have a separate hutch/coop for your broody and the young chicks. Again you will need to despatch the males, unless you want to grow them on for eating. Some allotments don't allow cocks so make sure of this point before you get one. Also if you have young children be aware that boys can be nasty when the girls are around. The broody will take care of the chicks until she gets fed up with them at about 8 weeks of age. You've no need to do anything with them as she will make sure they feed properly and keep them safe.

Good luck with whatever you decide!
 
Agree as always with all Philcott says, but just to add that, if you rear chicks by whatever method, you'll need to be able to keep them separate until they are at least 20+ weeks old. this is because a) they need chick food until 8-10 weeks then growers feed until 20 weeks, not layers pellets which have too much calcium for developing birds, being intended for hens producing eggs and b) if you put them in with an adult flock before this they will be bullied and integration will be more difficult. Can't see why you'd want a cockerel unless you meant to go on breeding lots of chicks in the next year or so, just an extra mouth to feed and space taken up, and also the birds you have ATM are not likely to go broody, being egglaying hybrids, so you'd probably either need a Silkie or two as well, or as these could be relied on to spend boring amounts of time in the maternity ward, or go with an incubator. It is possible to hire incubators, or of course buy second hand, and by the time you've budgeted for the cost of another cockerel and at least one broody-type hen (probably at least two hens as it's so difficult to introduce a single hen to a flock) plus all the equipment you'd need such as broody coop and run, extra mesh to divide your run whilst they were growing etc, it's hardly going to give you any financial return. Plus the dreadful decisions about What To Do With The Boys that Philcott mentions. (Nobody will want cockerels unless they are really good-quality purebreds.) Much easier to get a few autosexing chicks or growers from a good breeder and take it from there.

You said your run is 24 ft - how wide is it? Remember adult large-breed chickens need at least 2 square metres of run space each, and you have 10 birds already. If you overcrowd them you'll get feather-pecking and fighting because they get stressed at higher densities. Your run sounds a good size, probably, for the ones you've got, but if you get more you'll need to do the sums first, and also allow for separating the new ones until they are 20+ weeks old, perhaps at one end, with their own coop etc.

Oh and PS -I had a giggle at the idea of 'time of the month' for chickens - maybe they do get PMS? Generally speaking, fertility does fall off in the winter and the girls don't lay much then anyway, but with the onset of longer days the girls come back into lay, the boys get that twinkle in their eye, and bingo! fertility improves. Good hatching eggs should be available from about now onwards but starting them early is a good idea to give thee chicks the chance to mature to POL for 6 months before the autumn comes.
 
wow! philcott + marigold,
loads of advice there, well where do i start, in answer to the width of the run its approx 7 ft but could be made wider, if my maths is right 24x7 divided by 3.3 ft (1 metre) = 50.9 sq metres ie 25 birds, although the maximum allowed is 20 but to be honest we only want around 5 or 6 more anyway.

assuming the above is correct im now tempted with the incubator idea (decisions, decisions) i have been trawling through the net and they really don't seem to be difficult to make at all and to be honest its not going to be a money making scheme anyway, its just we have 5 (yes 5) little ones ranging from 2 - 15 and they really want to see their own chicks hatching and growing up which is the main reason for the project, of course the extra eggs certainly wont go to waste that's for sure.

im very DIY techie in that i really dont struggle to build things and i think the incubator could be made with minimum out lay,i have seen forced air ones on ebay made from polystyrene boxes selling for £50 upwards, if anyone has any advice regarding this then please feel free to shout out.

as for the fertilised eggs i was thinking ebay or possibly a forum member, as ive been reading the posts regarding ebay sellers.

i dont think i would have any problem dispatching the males but it would be the identifying part that i would struggle with, the wife on the other hand wouldnt hurt a fly so i would have to do it away from her eyes.

its amazing how our original ideas have changed since becoming a member on here, just goes to show the sound advice that is being given out.
very many thanks again
simon + colette
 
simon+colette said:
wow! philcott + marigold,
loads of advice there, well where do i start, in answer to the width of the run its approx 7 ft but could be made wider, if my maths is right 24x7 divided by 3.3 ft (1 metre) = 50.9 sq metres ie 25 birds, although the maximum allowed is 20 but to be honest we only want around 5 or 6 more anyway.

e
Click to expand...

er, erm, my maths isn't too hot either but I think there are 9 sq ft to a sq.yard so about 10 to a sq. metre, so if your run is 24 X 7 ft = 168 sq ft = about 16-17 sq. metres = about 8-9 hens or round about what you've got already.....

I'd recommend these two paperbacks from amazon;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hatching-Rearing-Birds-Terry-Beebe/dp/1907426078/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329409027&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Incubation-Hatching-Rearing-Katie-Thear/dp/090613725X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329409027&sr=1-1

-lots of help and advice on setting up to hatch and rear young birds. Yes it's addictive, isn't it, and great to share with kids.
 
marigold you are indeed correct, quite where i got that figure from i dont know, anyway like i said the run size can be increased to at least 28 x 12 ft thus allowing me 31 sq metres which would allow for 15 birds in total which is what we require really.

this will only cost roughly £30 so will be a job for this weekend, then i'll be looking a bit closer at the DIY incubator idea.

thank you for the correction

many regards and thank you for the advice so far
simon+colette
 
Just to chip in my six penn'orth - the figures you're working from are the minimum, allow more space if you possibly can. :)
 
Hi Simon and Colette

I can't offer you any advice as I have only had my hens for 12 months, but just wanted to welcome you to the forum. This forum is fantastic and the help and advice I have received over the past 12 months from members has been amazing. Good luck with your project.
 
Agree with CPL for my ha'penn'orth. 4 square metres per is far better. Free ranging legal requirement is 15 square metres per so anything less is constraining. At the moment we have 5 in each 25 square metre run. Plus they then free range for several hours a day. Remember happy birds are healthy birds.
 
Hello & welcome!

Incubator... Personally I wouldn't touch the polystyrene ones on eBay, it is worth buying a small decent one that turns automatically, temperture& humidity so basically all you do is put the eggs in, candle a few times, take out the non fertile eggs and hatch in 21 days! I'm looking at a new one which costs £100 to hold 6 eggs.
The brooder I have is from eBay, £20.00 with lamp, dishes & spare lamp, raised my babies extremely well. Just a big plastic container!

I have 11 hens & 3 pekin bantum cockerels running around in my garden the cockerels (button fully grown & 2 18wks boys) get on extremely well they are now all the same size. So don't be to hasty to remove the cocks if get some, besides you can advertise on here!! X
 
Hello and welcome to the forum simon and colette! :-)99 :-)99

Lots of excellent advice given already! Might be worth a little investigation into what breeds you think might suit you.

On the website here there are lots of articles on hatching and rearing your own birds (as well as Marigolds very good recommendations! ;) )

http://poultrykeeper.com/common-articles-to-all-poultry/

Have a good nose then click on the tabs at the top will bring you back to the forum.
 
Marigold said:
If you want chicks, there are quite a few autosexing breeds available, ie ones you can tell the sex when the chicks are very young by different feather colours and patterns, eg Cream Legbars, and also some that are sex-linked, eg Buff Sussex, which are the result of a cross between a gold cockerel and a white hen of suitable breeds.
Click to expand...

Hi Marigold, Buff Sussex are a pure Sussex breed not a x, true Sussex colours are Light, Silver, Red, Brown, White, Speckled, Coronation & Buff; true reds, browns & whites are quite hard to come by nowadays. Ive hatched out 'buff' by my LS boy & red girl, so yes you can sex link sussex x's to a degree but they are not true buffs , but have had a few girls turn out to be lights :) . if I had the space would so love to have a trio of all the Sussex colours :D
 
hello again all,
thank you for the nice welcome and the great advice.
i understand the comments regarding the space availiable for the hens to run around in,and the reasons why, im not contradicting but this is what is written on the forum FAQ section An area of one meter squared per pair of hens is reasonable with a height that allows hens to jump up in the air to peck at greens etc that can be hung in the run to give them more exercise.

i certainly have the height its 6 ft high so thats not a problem, as said the length and width can be extended also we were having a look yesterday afternoon/evening and we can allow the birds to 'free range' a large part of the allotment, especially if i cordon off our veg beds which is a simple job.

they also have a large branch structure at the top end that allows the birds to jump on so they can be nosey, and believe me they are very nosey birds indeed.

so it seems i have a number of options to flow into.

one thing that is bothering me though is the incubator, one poster said he/she wont touch the polystyrene ones, is there a reason why? if its to do with the turning of the eggs that really is no problem at all, as the wife is home all day looking after the little one when im at work, but if its a health issue ie being made of poly styrene then obviously that is more of a concern.

well theres a lot more thinking and planning to be done now so id best go and start doing it lol.
thank you again for the help , it really is appreciated

regards simon + colette
 
Think that particular forum FAQ needs updating! More space =less stress =less illness - a simple equation.

Cheap Polystyrene manual turn ones will work fine but there is greatly increased risk of infection when the eggs are handled so much.
 
simon+colette said:
i understand the comments regarding the space availiable for the hens to run around in,and the reasons why, im not contradicting but this is what is written on the forum FAQ section An area of one meter squared per pair of hens is reasonable with a height that allows hens to jump up in the air to peck at greens etc that can be hung in the run to give them more exercise.

regards simon + colette
Click to expand...

hi Simon & Colette,
That certainly sounds very surprising to me - i've searched for it and can't seem to find it - could you possibly post the link, please?
 
This reference comes from FAQ section in the website.

The article mentions the importance of giving as much space as possible to hens.The guidance of 1m2 is a recognised absolute minimum, however there are variables such as size, breed, strain to consider as well as the poultry run being static or moveable, under cover, exposed, on free draining ground etc....
 
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