Fertile eggs -how can you tell?

chrismahon

chrismahon

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Well, we had the first egg from the Brown English Leghorn Bantams today -50 grammes as usual. Had a peek tonight and they all have bright red combs so expect more tomorrow.

Now that we have enthusiastic young Boris cockerel chasing his girls around the coop every morning it stands to reason that he has caught them a few times.

It seems a bit of a waste to eat the eggs when they could be fertile and hatched. They are a quite rare breed in my opinion and we have specifically bought a top quality pullet breeding cockerel for the show quality hens. A pity there are not more around as they lay like crazy (over 200 each last year -2nd full year), taste even better than our large fowl eggs and for a small keeper they offer maximum egg yield for minimum feed and space. Downside they are very flighty (difficult for a fox to catch though) and can't stand the cold (so in the greenhouse in Winter).

I could incubate them of course, but then I'd be tempted to hatch them myself and we haven't the space now. I would like to supply them for hatching but don't know if Boris is 'delivering' or if he is fertile (hope he is or we have a big problem). I remember that the show judging of eggs requires that they are not fertile when cracked open. How can they tell?
 
Thanks for that Bertie. Difficult to 'spot' though -needs experience I think. I didn't realise that the cells had already started to multiply and a little chick is beginning before the egg is laid. Thought that only happened when egg had gone cold and was then bought back to body temperature.

So tomorrow morning, before the eggs are poached, I will have a good look at them.
 
Sue (darkbrowneggs) has a lovely page which explains it well

http://www.darkbrowneggs.info/#/fertile-eggs/4542304559

The egg is fertilised (blastoderm) but no cell division occurs, this is just the fertilised egg. When incubation starts then the fertile egg starts to develop.

I check mine using this method as because I hatch in the winter I like to get an estimate of fertility first, I look for the "target" in a strong light, a solid spot means infertile.

If you want to test some eggs, I would be delighted to pop some in my incubator and rear on for you! :D
 
Fantastic reading that Foxy and I've saved Sue's page in our favourites. Going to try tomorrow and do a comparison. Having said that Bottom may have fertilised Bluebells egg and Frankie has undoubtably fertilised evey Wyandotte he can get to, so I possibly haven't got an unfertilised egg to compare with?

So I was right that the egg has to go stone cold (for 20 hours) before getting back up to incubation temperature in order to develop further. It does say though that cell division has started when the egg is laid and there are 256 cells in the blastoderm -presumably that's why the spot is bigger. Anyway, I'll see if I can spot a baby Boris, or a baby Snowdrop, Daisy or Poppy.
 
chrismahon said:
Fantastic reading that Foxy and I've saved Sue's page in our favourites. Going to try tomorrow and do a comparison. Having said that Bottom may have fertilised Bluebells egg and Frankie has undoubtably fertilised evey Wyandotte he can get to, so I possibly haven't got an unfertilised egg to compare with?

So I was right that the egg has to go stone cold (for 20 hours) before getting back up to incubation temperature in order to develop further. It does say though that cell division has started when the egg is laid and there are 256 cells in the blastoderm -presumably that's why the spot is bigger. Anyway, I'll see if I can spot a baby Boris, or a baby Snowdrop, Daisy or Poppy.
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I can't remember for sure Chris but i think if you store the eggs in a cool place a particular way up (wide side up?) they will keep for a while before incubation. We got ours from a chook farmer with loads of eggs upside down in a cupboard some were a few weeks old i think! and they still hatched! can't remember the details though... :-)19
 
Hi and pleased you enjoyed the page. :)

Basically the hen has every ova she will ever lay inside her when she hatches from the egg this is why genes are so important if you want a good egg layer

The cockerel mates with the hen who stores the semen in sperm nests inside herself. (this is why you should allow a couple of weeks inbetween changing cockerels) When she releases an ova it is fertilized by a sperm and then the fertilized cell begin to split so 2-4-16-256 by which time the egg has formed and is normally laid. (I think this can sometimes cause a problem with the darker Marans eggs, they are so dark because they have many layers of painted on pigment, and the longer the egg remains in the egg chamber the more coats it receives, but also it allows the cells to keep dividing, making it a difficult temperature change as the egg is laid) But I digress

When the egg is laid this blastoderm does still need nourishment which it will obtain from the egg white, by gently moving the egg from time to time it allows fresh nutrients to continue to nourish. This does not matter in the early days as the spot is so small, but after 7 days or so the eggs should be turned backwards and forwards at least once a day. Eggs in storage should normally be place pointed side down so the air cell is encouraged to stay at the top of the egg, so the easiest way is to have them in a tray and put a brick under first one side and then the other, allowing movement of all the eggs. Eggs upto 14 days old should still hatch quite happily, though the viability does begin to reduce after around 7 days, and of course they need to be stored in optimal conditions ie cool and not too dry.

For some reason eggs do hatch better if they are allowed to cool completely after laying then warmed again. I suppose it is all to do with how a broody would normally lay and hatch her clutch

Regarding eggs for showing I don't think judges should normally reject a fertile egg at a show unless the development were advanced
The PCGB says on their egg showing page with reference to the judging of egg contents - At each end of the yolk the chalazae cords should be visible, as will the blastoderm or germ spot to be found at one side of the centre of the yolk.

It's going to be that hatching time again - I must get the inccy plugged in :D :D
 
Last year I tested a breeding pen after introducing a new male. It took 18 days before the 2nd male's sperm was fertilising the eggs. I knew this because the second male had a rose comb which is dominant. So for to be certain of the parentage of the chicks, I'd say allow 21 days after changing males.
 
darkbrowneggs said:
:)

Basically the hen has every ova she will ever lay inside her when she hatches from the egg this is why genes are so important if you want a good egg layer

The cockerel mates with the hen who stores the semen in sperm nests inside herself. (this is why you should allow a couple of weeks inbetween changing cockerels) When she releases an ova it is fertilized by a sperm and then the fertilized cell begin to split so 2-4-16-256 by which time the egg has formed and is normally laid. For some reason eggs do hatch better if they are allowed to cool completely after laying then warmed again. I suppose it is all to do with how a broody would normally lay and hatch her clutch

:D
Click to expand...

Is that the reason why we hear so many heartwarming tales of much-loved hens going missing, presumed eaten by fox, and returning in triumph 3 weeks later with a brood of chicks? I always supposed she must have been sneaking back unobserved every day for an 'assignation' but maybe she just stocks up well with sperm nests and takes herself off for a bit of privacy.

This is just a brilliant post, Darkbrowneggs, I've learned a lot today, thank you.
 
The natural way or the 'stolen nest'. Hen sneaks off every/other day to lay in a nest which she has made which will be in a well concealed spot. When she has laid enough eggs to her satisfaction and sometimes too many, she will sit on them and become broody. Every day she'll come off to feed usually when no-one is around. If you do see her and recognise that she is broody, you'll realise that she has a stolen nest. If you decide to try to see where she is nesting, keep an eye on her. If you take your eyes off her for a minute, she will be gone and back to the eggs. After three weeks she will appear, hopefully with chicks. When my general bantams were completely free range, I'd have to go careful when pulling a bale of hay off the stack as quite often I'd get a nest of 20-30 eggs fall on my head. Sometimes, I'd find a hen sitting on a nest and try to work round her so as not to disturb her. Sometimes, I'd find a nest in three layers with nearly 30 eggs in. In summer, most of these will hatch and I think my record was 22 chicks from one nest.
A nest of that size will mean that more than one hen will be depositing eggs there otherwise the eggs would be over a month old before being sat on.
It's alarming to watch chicks drop down 6 or 7 feet from a bale stack at 48 hours old with no harm to themselves. To watch a hen at work with her chicks is a wonderful sight. The call to feed and the squawk of danger, when all the chicks must run to her and which she does as a practice run in the early days. All this goes back to their origins as the Jungle Fowl.
 
Well it's good news. Young Postman Boris has caught them and delivered his package. Checked two eggs which are now a week old. Found it very easy to see the blastoderm which is at least twice the size of the one in DBE's photographs -about 4mm across. They have been stored at room temperature in the kitchen, so perhaps further cell division has taken place. So plenty of hatching eggs available soon- problem is in the cold snap we've just had she's stopped laying, so we haven't had any more eggs since.
 
So will you (not you personally..) will be incubating any eggs soon? :D
 
Philcott would like some Foxy, so when they start again and I when have a moment (rebuilding MK2 coop and then making 4 breeding units) I will make some arrangements.
 
And Frankie, our Gold Laced Wyandotte 'peacekeeper' (for utility breeding process) is fertile as well! So he will be going into a breeding unit with the 3 GLW hens. Next to test is Basil (Bottom's son) and big softy Frankie. Then, if we can find one, Claude, the Transyvanian Naked Neck.
 
Just to update. Basil is fertile as well. Checked the eggs after keeping at room temperature (12 degrees) for 5 days and the blastoderm is again about 5mm across, so more cell division has taken place since laying.
 
chrismahon said:
Just to update. Basil is fertile as well. Checked the eggs after keeping at room temperature (12 degrees) for 5 days and the blastoderm is again about 5mm across, so more cell division has taken place since laying.
Click to expand...

I think it is the case that cell division continues but at a very slow pace, which is why hatchability diminished after 7 days storage (but that is at cool temperatures) I see you say that after a few days at room temp the blastoderm has grown from approx 4mm to 5mm.

It might be interesting to take a new laid egg from your flock and compare blastoderm size with the ones that are in the kitchen, and report back to us. :)
 
I'll try that DBE, when I have a bit more time. Microwave, tumble dryer and computer printer all packed up this week!
 
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