chicks and foul smell

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chickenfan

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I have bought in two 8-9 day old chicks. One is unwell - smaller and standing with its wings out and lethargic, although it is eating. It gets cold easily and spends most of the time sleeping under the electric hen. The other seems fine. There is a foul smell to the poo, but it looks reasonably normal or a bit loose. I have checked with the breeder and she says she has had mycoplasma in her flock, which sounds worrying. I am wondering what the foul-smelling (bacteria-like) poo might be.
 
Oh dear, that doesn't sound too good, does it? Are they both doing smelly poo or just the sickly one? This is a real conundrum. You might be best to cull the sickly one for several reasons, but that would leave you with another single chick that you don't really want to have to integrate in case it turns out to be carrying something, or to have got infected by the other one.
Any chance of returning both of them to the breeder, as the original single one seems to be managing OK now? I certainly wouldn't want to risk raising a sickly chick and its little friend from somewhere that had had known mycoplasma.
 
If the breeder now admits to having had Myco I would return the chicks to her. I'm sure if she told you that initially you wouldn't have bought them.

The smell may be the type of gut flora. We start all our chicks with a dab of probiotic yoghurt on their beaks during day 2. It could also be a serious bacterial infection. Sounds like one needs to be culled anyway, because it won't improve on its own.

I have heard of Myco decimating flocks, whilst many others are almost unaffected with just one or two showing symptoms. The solution seems to be divided between 'cull and start again' or 'medicate and hope'. I think half the birds out there have it and ours may be among them, I don't know? It only seems to occur with birds already run down by something else or with the introduction of new stock into a flock previously unaffected.
 
Thank you Marigold and Chris for kindly replying to my endless questions. I asked to return the sick chick as soon as I got it home and noticed it wasn't normal. It isn't possible to return the sick one or indeed the healthy one, even though I've kept them in isolation. I would have culled the sick one, but the healthy one needs a companion. I'm now treating them both. She also said she has had coccidiosis, which I find worrying. But mycoplasma is in them for life apparently. I had quizzed her on the health of her birds before going to see them - but everyone says their birds are fine. At least she has been honest enough to tell me now.

It looks like I will have to cull them both unfortunately. I'd rather have one psychologically unusual bird than an unhealthy flock. Three years ago I bought a healthy-looking young bird which later died of infectious Leukemia. It looked perfectly well for many months, then gradually nearly all my birds went down with it and died as there is no cure. It was completely devastating.

Good idea about the yogurt Chris. Thank you both for all your support.
 
I am rather disheartened by the shameless attitude of the breeder. Pretty disgraceful to be selling birds in the first case as it sounds like they should just cull and close down. That's a real pity Chickenfan. I feel partly to blame for suggesting you get companions for your chick. Hope it all works out. I agree that culling the new arrivals is the way to go as you don't know what you haven't been told!
 
Yes, I'm sorry to say I think you should do as Chris suggests. There's probably no future for the sick one, and the risk of introducing the other one is not sensible. Even if it did turn out not to be a carrier, you would always be watching and wondering, and would probably blame it for any illness in the flock later on. Nasty to have to do it, but I think you will feel a sense of relief afterwards.

I also agree about the breeder's attitude. Anyone who breeds any animals should take responsibility for their health immediately after they're sold, as a minimum, especially if breeding a lot of chicks from a flock with known problems. It sounded from your other thread about this that conditions were far from ideal where they were being hatched. I can understand that she wouldn't want to re-import them to her flock, and would probably cull them if returned, but she should at least give you your money back. How much was she charging, I wonder?

Back to the original chick, your own one - is it possible to separate it from the others with mesh? I think you said it had a plastic box to see them through, or maybe I'm wrong. Remind us how old they are now. Sounds as if you might now need to concentrate on integrating this one, and contact through mesh might be a good next step. How much space have they got, and have you been able to reduce the heat as they feather up! ? -with warm weather, maybe they could go out in a little run for a few hours on sunny days by 4 weeks if well feathered, and with extra space and new surroundings the little one might be able to hold her own better.
 
Thank you Chris and Marigold for your replies. You are right I don't know what I haven't been told. My lone chick has done wonderfully so far - a really easy-going little thing, quite happy scratching around and eating and showing no signs of loneliness so long as it is with the others. I now have it in a small coop within the larger coop (Eglu), so it has space to run around, and contact with the ground. However, in spite of my madly careful measures washing my hands and changing my clothes between chicks, it looks very sleepy this afternoon, standing with its eyes closed. I think I'm going to need to find out what is wrong with the sick chick. I should have killed it as soon as it arrived. I paid £7 each for the chicks and the batch looked well, although I wasn't able to study them for long. Afterwards I really regretted having supported such a venture. I had turned down some other chicks which didn't look well the previous day and altogether drove 6 hours trying to locate suitable chicks from a 'decent-sounding' breeder. My experience in looking around breeders is that only a tiny proportion are doing things in a remotely decent way, and I gather most 'rare breed' enterprises are full of illnesses. I had no idea there would be several hundred chicks in one garden shed, all of different ages, when I called. It was a young mother obviously trying to make a living from it. I think loads of people are cashing in on the interest in chickens - just like puppy-farming. What is to be done about it?

I had very low hatch from my eggs from ebay. All my own eggs hatched, but only about 10% of those bought in. It may be due to the post or my incubator, but I gather if the unhatched chicks have mycoplasma, most die just before they hatch. I don't know where one can ethically source eggs - except perhaps from members of the forum. Is this something we could promote? Can we do something to raise awareness re the ethics of poultry supply?

Re integration of the lone chick (which I think is a hen), the bigger chicks are still more than twice the size of the lone chick and all look like enormous cockerels. When I have tried occasionally to put it one of them with it, they try to peck its head and I don't trust any of them. It will be quite a long time before they can go in a big run with all the cats around here.
 
If your little chick is now outside and in contact with the ground do you have ACS in the chick crumb? Coccidiosis is in the outside environment and at under 6 weeks chicks are vulnerable to it. Look for blood in the poo.

Very difficult to make money from chicken breeding. To do it you have to 'cut corners' to keep your costs to a minimum. There were many breeders around us in England 3 years ago. They all closed down because there was no market for all the birds they were breeding. I visited them all and conditions seemed at an acceptable minimum, but certainly not to our standard. The diet, health, age and interbreeding of the parents all have a bearing on the eggs. We bought some for hatching that were filthy, so I can imagine the condition the parents were living in. Problem could be that some suppliers are washing them, which may explain why you got a hatch with such a high humidity Chickenfan. I don't think anything needs to be done about people 'cashing in'. Without building up a reputation businesses won't last long. When we bred Wyandottes we operated at a loss. We only broke even by selling perfectly good hatching eggs to people to eat -£1.60 for 6 Blue Laced Wyandotte hatching eggs is a real bargain!
 
I trid to post a link to a thread recently running on Practical Poultry Forum, about this explosion in poor value poultry hobby breeders, but found it wouldn't work as you have to be registered and logged in to the forum for the link to work. However, here's a link from this thread to a chart about good and bad dog breeders, which, as the person posting says, also applies to any other animal including poultry.
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/comparison.html

Whilst it may not be possible to physically return the chicks, and to do so might even prolong their suffering, I think you should write a letter to the breeder setting out your feelings on this matter. If it's there in writing she will have to read it and may retain some of the feedback and advice you're giving her. Also you should get your money back, no question.
Nobody could have done more than you to give your birds the best possible start in life, its a shame you were let down by others. For hatching eggs, next time you could try Chalk Hill Poultry. I've not bought hatching eggs from them but whenever I've needed new birds, including Marigold and Nutmeg as chicks as well as various POLs, they have all turned out to be really healthy, long lived and productive. So probably the eggs are OK too.
See http://chalkhillpoultry.co.uk/
 
Thank you both for such helpful replies. I shall make an expedition to Chalk Hill Poultry next year if I want more eggs. Thank you also for the very useful link about good and bad dog breeders.

I raise my chicks on woodchip in a covered, dry run and haven't had coccidiosis so far. I read in Karma Glos 'Humane and Healthy Organic Poultry Production' that it is good to expose young chicks to the ground as they then build a stronger immune system. She has some quite interesting ideas.
 
How is your little one getting on? Will it be possible to integrate him/her once they're out and have more space, if you set up lots of places to hide and if the area is new to them all? I do agree about getting chicks out and about as soon as possible. That's one of things I like about the Chalk Hill Poultry birds -they're off heat as early as possible, out in grass runs with shelter to retreat to by about 4 weeks old, and after that they're raised in grass paddocks outside. Nick tries really hard to rear very hardy healthy birds.
 
Thank you so much for the introduction to Chalk Hill Poultry Marigold. Its great to know someone who is doing things well and trying hard to raise hardy birds, so this is where I shall go in future. If you live near there, have you ever been to the Salisbury Poultry Auction? I gather its the main place for rare breeds in the south.

The lone chick is growing very well and seems happy thankyou. I will in time try moving one of the older ones to a new place with the little one but feel the size difference is too much at present.
 
Poultry auctions are a place best avoided Chickenfan. They are a hotbed of sickness and reject breeder stock. We went to Melton Mobray and saw a cockerel with hens that looked 'off'. panting a lot. An hour later it was dead, but they still sold the hens. People also bought the contents of the cages around it as well. There are also a lot of stolen birds sold at poultry auctions. The stuff they were selling at Penkridge had to be seen to be believed. Cream Legbar hatching eggs which were all WHITE.
 
I agree with Chris, I don't know why anyone would ever buy from an auction. In addition to all the health and quality issues he highlights, there's the potential problem of healthy birds actually becoming infected from dirty cages from the previous lot, and also, a major problem for the birds, the stress of being taken from a quiet run among their own flock, in a vehicle, perhaps a long way, then spending a very stressful day in cramped cages with lots of people looking at them, and the crowing, the noise and shouting. Then another journey to whatever home they've arrived at, exhausted, probably hungry and dehydrated, and certainly very stressed and shocked. Not a good start, and the stress is likely to lead to the emergence of illness, a big risk to the rest of your flock. Also of course, you have no idea of the conditions they've been reared in, and no chance of coming back to the breeder for advice or recompense if things do wrong, I think the same things can often be said about poultry shows, the two I've been to were ear splitting with the noise of the cockerels all crowing, and I felt sorry for the birds.
Best to buy from a recommended breeder whose premises meet your standards, where you can examine the birds in the hand before purchase. Then bring new birds home quietly and keep them in a ready-prepared quarantine run for a couple of weeks. This lets them settle in before meeting the rest of the flock, and enables you to decide if they have any health issues which need dealing with first.
 
I agree with both of you that it would be wrong to buy a live bird from an auction. I actually wouldn't buy a live bird even from the best-looking place where there are a number of breeds, but I am perhaps very cautious. I was interested that people travel from as far as Cornwall to source their hatching eggs in Salisbury. That's horrendous that stolen birds are sold in auctions. I gather people sometimes source cockerels for cock-fighting at our local auction and choose the placid breeds to give theirs confidence.
 
All the auctions I have been to won't sell cockerels on their own Chickenfan. Perhaps that's why?

Annoyingly, the only way you can recover stolen birds from an auction is to have them microchipped and take your own reader. The auctions don't have readers and the Police can't recover the stolen property without evidence. So even if you can see your chickens, the only way to get them back is to bid for them. Whether the thieves would bid against you to hike up the price I don't know? I know someone who drove hundreds of miles over several days to try to recover stolen Welsummers. He was unsuccessful, so we gave them two very sweet Buff Wyandottes.
 
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