Baytril - new rules?

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pennyblack chooks

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Belle had a bumblefoot a couple of months ago and I am still vet wrapping her claw to prevent a new wound and to allow the small 'cavity' to 'come back down' to normal claw level (sorry if that isn't a good explanation) I was given the choice of baytril or cephacare to treat her for 7 days to aid the healing process.

Having used Baytril for Lizzie ( my almot 5 year old hybrid hen that had been diagnosed with an infection in the summer , although when I took her back when it came back again a couple of months later my chicken vet said it was egg peritonitis and so I had her gently PTS then) when it came to Belle I said Baytril please.

Only to be told that the rules for using Baytril had changed (though I am not sure when they changed) and that because it is used in human medicine for something to do with (I think) immune issues, it now should not be used at all in egg laying chickens and most definitely not in chickens whose eggs are going to be given away or sold because of the baytril effect in those eggs. When I asked if this was for a limited number of days (ie during treatment and for 7 days etc after) I was told no - its forever, once the chciken has had baytril even just once. The only way you can even give such eggs away apparently now is by making sure prospective consumers of your gifts are told about the Baytril.

Now I have only used Baytril this year for Lizzie who had stopped laying anyway, and also this summer for Bert (my old cockerel who I tried it with to help him through a secondary infection he had when he was near the end of his natural span) so this was not an issue for me, until I needed something for Belle earlier this winter.

I don't doubt my vet, though I do doubt my memory of exactly all the details she told me at that time. So I wondered if anyone can confirm this?

If it has changed from a treatment that was used for birds under the cascade rules (even though I know it was not designated an avian medicine) with egg withdrawal etc, why has it suddenly changed?
 
I'm not aware of this PBC. Could spell disaster for us as it is the only antibiotic we could afford at the moment. Will be ringing the vet about this.

Reason it may have changed is to stop people becoming allergic to it; if a derivative of Baytril is going to be used. A lot of people are allergic to penicillin and some to all the alternatives as well.
 
My understanding is Baytril is now not licensed by the FDA (US) for use in poultry, basically because of evidence to support the fact that resistance is growing to this group of antibiotics.These are used to treat certain diseases which are common to the human species and can be carried by poultry ( Campylobacter being a major cause of concern)

Antibiotic resistance is becoming a real concern as new strains of "super bacteria" are evolving. Novel antibiotics are not being developed in time and a lot of older antibiotics are increasingly becoming ineffective against these new strains.

With the increase in poultry for consumption and growth in the free range market, strategies are in place to try and reduce the use of antibiotic therapy for use and this thinking is also being applied to backyard keepers.

This is also why "ad hoc" use of antibiotics or treating for a few days without finishing a course ultimately may be making a rod for our own backs. :(
 
Will I sound really hard and uncaring if I suggest that, in many (most?) cases, it's really best to cull a sick chicken rather than treat with antibiotics? Yes we all get fond of them, they are our pride and joy, but on poultry forums I so often read long threads where some elderly or sick bird has been given long courses of various antibiotics, often to no avail. With chickens as well as any other species, length of life isn't the same as quality of life, and i sometimes feel we tend to hang on in there hoping for a miracle which isn't going to come, and giving treatment which may be counterproductive to their species as well as our own.
Now shoot me down, everybody!
 
I'm afraid I agree to a certain extent. On another forum I read about a hen having a hormone implant, and various other treatments, costing £2000:eek: I'm on a fairly low wage, and couldn't afford this. I'm.also not sure that I agree with prolonging the life of sick/in pain animals. I've had to hold my tongue with my mum, who adopted a rescue dog, which is a stupid cross of a pointer and staffordshire bt. (apparently its done to try to make huge muscle dogs) The bones are too light to support the muscles, and his back legs have just required two ops, to graft and repair the joints/tendons etc. This cost hundreds even with the insurance. Poor dog can't be let off the lead for a year...and isn't supposed to run again....
Sorry I'm ranting:oops: but I think animals need respecting, not keeping alive for our selfish needs.
Sorry for going off topic ...I need another cuppa and more sleep! Sorry;)
 
Like Foxy says --it is not licensed for poultry use -so,it has NOT been proven safe to eat eggs from birds treated with this . This does not just relate to whilst on treatment or a short period after but for the LIFE of the bird .This is a another serious consideration if you wish to continue eating eggs from your birds!!!! Yet another reason not to just give your birds some spare anti -biotics without knowing what 'bug' they are suffering from and its particular sensitivities to antibiotics. Many people seem to treat infections with Baytril,Tylan :evil: etc without any idea what they are treating or if that is indeed the correct antibiotic,in many cases a cheap ,appropriate antibiotic such as Amoxycillin may be far more appropriate !Asking your vet may just be a good idea ! At least this is my understanding of it! Ros
 
If this is now the case with Baytril what happens about the hens that were previously treated when these rules did not apply. Three years ago when I first had hens I took my lovely dorking hen to the vets with a bad resp problem. He said he did not think she would make it as her temp was so high he also said she would never make a good hen as this problem would probably reoccur if she made it in the first place. He gave me baytril with instructions not the eat the eggs for eight days. My lovely dorking hen is still alive today has laid eggs every day throughout the summer months and never had a day of sickness since. I have in all that time eaten the eggs and given her eggs to neighbours. So by this ruling presumably I should now start destroying her eggs.
 
Marigold said:
Will I sound really hard and uncaring if I suggest that, in many (most?) cases, it's really best to cull a sick chicken rather than treat with antibiotics? Yes we all get fond of them, they are our pride and joy, but on poultry forums I so often read long threads where some elderly or sick bird has been given long courses of various antibiotics, often to no avail. With chickens as well as any other species, length of life isn't the same as quality of life, and i sometimes feel we tend to hang on in there hoping for a miracle which isn't going to come, and giving treatment which may be counterproductive to their species as well as our own.
Now shoot me down, everybody!
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No I agree with you That is why I let Lizzie go as soon as I knew what it was (it was a farm vet that had told me a general infection) from the chicken vet and although I have lost other chooks at around 3 years old to this, with Lizzie it seemed diferent and as i say she was almost 5 years old and had stopped laying so i was prepared to belive the farm vet that was able to see her the first time i took her in. With Bert he came with shortened toes (one on each claw) when I rehomed him and he had a had a good long life with us but in the end his gait affected his health and I tried to restore his quality of life with the vets advice and input but when I went back again and discussed it I made the decision that it wasn't enough to satisfy me that he was having the quality of life I want for my hens and with autumn coming I had him gently PTS too. I held them for the vet.

I think it is about respect for their needs and quality of life as chickens.

SoI havn't misunderstood my vet then! I went with ceohacare obviously for Belle's bumblefoot.
 
I dont think its any ' new rule' - I THINK this has always been so???? If you are concerned Its best to check with your though. Ros
 
It's only a problem if you are going to sell the eggs or eat the bird. It's also a problem if you are putting your sentiment over the quality of life of the bird. But for a one-off infection for a 'pet' or a breeding bird I don't see a problem. One of our Orpington hens had a bad respiratory problem and was treated with Baytril. She recovered, lays well and has given us many chicks. When she does get chesty now and again, as the vet said she woyld be prone to it, a bit of tlc and plenty of ventillation and she's fine -she won't be getting any more Baytril. Annie Bllack Rock had an abdominal infection and was treated, the next one she fought off on her own. She is now getting them regularly but keeps fighting and is happy with it -no more Baytril though. When her quality of life looks bad she goes.
 
Does anyone know why the advice is that you can never again eat any eggs ever laid by a bird treated with Baytril? I can see that there would have to be a withdrawal period, maybe quite a lengthy one, but don't understand what permanent difference it would make to her eggs, maybe months or even years later.
 
Marigold---- My guess is it probably has no long term affect BUT as not licensed for poultry this has never been shown/proven to be so.There are plenty of other antibiotics available that are approved for use in poultry with appropriate data on side effects . Ros
 
it is very strange. I have just got out my baytril 10% given by a vet who did not mention that you were never to eat the eggs again just that there was a withdrawal period. The actual box the abs came in says oral solution for Poultry. I have been reading all the small print and it actually says that you can eat the meat of the chicken after an eight day withdrawal period which is probably the place the vet took the advise from. On closer inspection the small print says do not use in poultry producing eggs. How strange is that you can eat the meat but you cant eat the eggs.
On another issue an avian vet treated one of my hens for parasites with a product not licensed for poultry he pointed this out to me and said because it was not licensed I must not eat the eggs for 28 days. Going by the rule if its not licensed we should never eat the eggs does this mean that this advise was wrong. Gosh is a minefield. Hopefully its just a precaution as iv eaten many eggs laid by my hen that was treated with baytril.
 
Even with the faintest possibility of microscopic traces of Baytril in the eggs they have got to be far better for you eaten fresh than shop eggs ever could be, that can be a month old. I read that after 3 days the vitamins start to break down, which is probably why eggs over 9 days old have very poor hatching rates. You have also got to consider that the environment we live in has been poisoned by DDT. Never mentioned now though. The sunlight has got uVC in it because the Ozone layer is so thin, which is why factor 30 has replaced factor 5. What they don't tell you is that it is far worse than that as the hole in the Ozone layer sometimes passes over North half of Britain it is now so big and really you should stay inside then. So the last thing I will be worrying about is the possibility of an infinitesimal amount of Baytril in my poached eggs on toast breakfast.
 
I've heard there are calls for vets to use less antibiotics and was talking to chickenvet about this at the Federation. As I understood it, Baytril was not licensed for use in chickens but a vet can prescribe it off license if there is no suitable alternative, under their clinical judgement.

I will drop them an email and ask and get back to you as it would be well worth knowing if anything has changed.
 
i made the decision a while back to just have my girls p.t.s if they are unwell, there have been times when i have had baytril etc and the birds were still very poorly that i had to have them p.t.s or they died within days or hours of going to the vets now i kinda feel its a waste of £40-£50 that its kinder to have them p.t.s some may say its harsh but my girls have all lived very happy lifes and the last thing i want is for them to be ill and suffer. with you on your last post chris :lol: :lol:
 
Though the amounts of baytril would be small they could be cumulative????? Is it??? And if giving eggs away as I do (as we know they are so noticeably superior to anything shop bought people are thrilled to have them) then what about the impact on those people. If I only had one or two hens and kept all my own eggs for our consumption only then I guess that's our own risk. That's what made the decision for me with 7 hens i like to give some of our eggs now and again to appreciative friends and neighbours so for me it will be what I went for before - cephacare or the equivalent as advised by my vet.

It certainly is a minefield.
 
I think probably given this new info I will not give eggs from my dorking to neighbours but will risk it for myself. I am a bit of a softy so should I be told that if I give baytril the eggs may never be eaten again but that baytril was the only option I would still go for the baytril and bin all the eggs. As long as I consider my girls have good quality of life eggs are secondary to me. I do appreciate that others have a different opinion and cannot afford this as an option. Gosh I guess one day I will have a whole family of none egg layers retiring in my garden.
 
pennyblack chooks said:
Though the amounts of baytril would be small they could be cumulative????? Is it??? And if giving eggs away as I do (as we know they are so noticeably superior to anything shop bought people are thrilled to have them) then what about the impact on those people. If I only had one or two hens and kept all my own eggs for our consumption only then I guess that's our own risk. That's what made the decision for me with 7 hens i like to give some of our eggs now and again to appreciative friends and neighbours so for me it will be what I went for before - cephacare or the equivalent as advised by my vet.

It certainly is a minefield.
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There is enough clinical evidence demonstrating drug clearance from all tissues and egg contents in poultry. It is very difficult for a vet to give definitive advice on a drug which is not licensed for an indication or animal. To be on the safe side they will have to quote either not (forever) to consume eggs of a treated egg layer,or take a more pragmatic approach which is that clinical evidence demonstrates that the drug is cleared at 7 or 10 days therefore to be on the safe side call it 14 days or maybe 28 days. As restrictions grow tighter, so vets will find it increasingly difficult to justify some off license prescribing.
 
foxy said:
There is enough clinical evidence demonstrating drug clearance from all tissues and egg contents in poultry. It is very difficult for a vet to give definitive advice on a drug which is not licensed for an indication or animal. To be on the safe side they will have to quote either not (forever) to consume eggs of a treated egg layer,or take a more pragmatic approach which is that clinical evidence demonstrates that the drug is cleared at 7 or 10 days therefore to be on the safe side call it 14 days or maybe 28 days. As restrictions grow tighter, so vets will find it increasingly difficult to justify some off license prescribing.
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so this suggests then baytril is not cumulative and that it could be deemed safe to eat eggs after a number of days or weeks have elapsed.....and that some vets will say this and some will simply say 'never'.

As you say, it just makes it harder and harder for vets to justify prescribing such medicines i guess because they will have to take responsibility for any repercussions.

I wonder how long cephacare as a currently acceptable antibiotic (given egg withdrawal for length of treatment and for 7 days after) will last. Can't remember what she said about it (other than above) when we discussed the two.
 
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