This one makes you realise that we native English speakers have learned a brilliant number of linguistic skills without even thinking about it.
https://youtu.be/A8zWWp0akUU
https://youtu.be/A8zWWp0akUU
What if English were phonetically consistent?
- Thread starter Marigold
- Start date
Margaid
Well-known member
What is even more amazing is that we can understand people when they get it wrong!
Tweetypie
Member
Wow, that's so true Marigold. When you think about it, most of these words could not be taught. It would be a case of learning them "parrot fashion", as and when they are used. Cough, dough, bough.....
My OH is Dutch, although he not lived there for 50 odd years. In some words with a "th" he pronounces the "t". An example would be the word Methodist, which he says Metodist....
Then there's the French, who seem to speak back to front....
My OH is Dutch, although he not lived there for 50 odd years. In some words with a "th" he pronounces the "t". An example would be the word Methodist, which he says Metodist....
Then there's the French, who seem to speak back to front....
Yes, word order varies a lot between languages and adds more complications. And when you add in borrowings from other languages, it gets even more interesting. When we go to Wales I enjoy phonetic transpositions such as 'Siop Chip' and no doubt Margaid has many other examples, being a Welsh speaker.
chrismahon
Well-known member
I suppose that's how my French sounds to a French person- no wonder I get some puzzled looks!
Margaid
Well-known member
I have to be pedantic here and explain I'm not a Welsh speaker but I can speak Welsh. A Welsh speaker is a person whose first language is Welsh; my first language is English. But yes, Marigold is right because in Welsh the adjective comes before the noun. This means that you will see things like "Gwesty Wellington Hotel" which is the Welsh name "Gwesty Wellington" immediately followed by the English so the word "Wellington" is used only once on the hotel sign. Another one is of course "Bywyd Gwyllt Glasyn Wildlife", the osprey protection site near Porthmadog, and we have none of this Latin/German nonsense of the verb being at the end of the sentence. 
rick
Active member
Our lad, teaching English in Japan said that he reduced the class to fits of laughter when he asked them to consider the phrase "How do you like your coffee?"
I think Welsh is Subject, Object, Verb like Japanese (I don't know, just guessing) - most languages in the world are, apparently - its just us that insist on being different!
I often think, though, what did they do with the overdub of Yoda for the Japanese version of the film to make him sound like a wise old master?
I think Welsh is Subject, Object, Verb like Japanese (I don't know, just guessing) - most languages in the world are, apparently - its just us that insist on being different!
I often think, though, what did they do with the overdub of Yoda for the Japanese version of the film to make him sound like a wise old master?
What's funny about 'How do you like your coffee?"
rick
Active member
I'm not sure, but I think it was coming across as;
"What do you do to appreciate your coffee?" or
"How do you express your feelings to your coffee?"
But not,
"Do you want milk and sugar in your coffee?/" or
"Do you like your coffee?/"
Probably it was the "How/" that was that was the curved ball.
"What do you do to appreciate your coffee?" or
"How do you express your feelings to your coffee?"
But not,
"Do you want milk and sugar in your coffee?/" or
"Do you like your coffee?/"
Probably it was the "How/" that was that was the curved ball.
Margaid
Well-known member
Sorry Rick, your guess is wrong. I'm a bit rusty not having studied any grammar for many years, or had much opportunity to use the language, so apologies to any Welsh speakers on the forum. Generally speaking the sentence construction is very similar to English, except for the position of the adjective. To continue with the coffee theme "I like coffee" translates as "'Rydw i'n hoffi coffi" - hoffi being the verb "to like". "I like black coffee " would be "'Rydw i'n hoffi coffi du". Adverbs and indicative pronouns such as "this" also come after the noun. There are some other little tweaks and traps for the unwary but the language is totally phonetic.
rick
Active member
Ah! It was a wild guess!
I like the sound of 'hoffi coffi'
So 'Rydw i'n' is all 'I'?
Going to have a go in Japanese without getting the dictionary out but Its early days:
Watashi wo kochii wa suki (I [object of verb] coffee [topic of sentence] like)
Japanese is phonetic (in kana or romanji at least) but there are no F's for the coffee and it is a borrowed word. ...except 'fu' but 'kofuiii' isnt it I think
Dinosaw would know!
I like the sound of 'hoffi coffi'
So 'Rydw i'n' is all 'I'?
Going to have a go in Japanese without getting the dictionary out but Its early days:
Watashi wo kochii wa suki (I [object of verb] coffee [topic of sentence] like)
Japanese is phonetic (in kana or romanji at least) but there are no F's for the coffee and it is a borrowed word. ...except 'fu' but 'kofuiii' isnt it I think
Dinosaw would know!
Margaid
Well-known member
It's one of the silly things that gives you the giggles.
'Rydw i'n is the colloquial "long" form, the full version without apostrophes is "Yr ydwyf i yn hoffi coffi" - but really depending on the verb it can mean "I do" or "I am". In front of "mynd" = to go, it can mean "I go" or "I am going". There are "short" forms but it means knowing how the suffix of the verb changes in order to indicate who is perfoming the action - Hoffaf (I like), Hoffwn (we like) Hoffwch (you like) Hoffant (they like) [If I remember correctly]. It's much easier to use the colloquial long forms!
Alphabets are fun too - 27 letters but no j,k,q,v,x or z!
Does Japanese have the same difficulties as Chineses (Mandarin?) in that the same word can mean something different according to the inflection with which it's said?
'Rydw i'n is the colloquial "long" form, the full version without apostrophes is "Yr ydwyf i yn hoffi coffi" - but really depending on the verb it can mean "I do" or "I am". In front of "mynd" = to go, it can mean "I go" or "I am going". There are "short" forms but it means knowing how the suffix of the verb changes in order to indicate who is perfoming the action - Hoffaf (I like), Hoffwn (we like) Hoffwch (you like) Hoffant (they like) [If I remember correctly]. It's much easier to use the colloquial long forms!
Alphabets are fun too - 27 letters but no j,k,q,v,x or z!
Does Japanese have the same difficulties as Chineses (Mandarin?) in that the same word can mean something different according to the inflection with which it's said?
Yes, those oriental tonal languages provide a whole new dimension for error!
rick
Active member
Margaid said:
I don't think so Margaid. Every syllable, each represented by a distinct 'kana' (i.e か、き、く、け、こ - ka, ki, ku, ke, ko and the rest - ka, ga, sa, za, ta, na ... etc) are always pronounced the same way. The only variation is that some unofficially go silent in regular speech. So 'desu ka' (is it?) becomes 'des ka'. 'Ka' is a question mark at the end of a sentence - it is spoken and so I am, at least, usually recognising when a spoken sentence is a question!
I don't think verb conjugation is any more difficult in Japanese than English - they are both a challenge from scratch!
However, having and using three different 'alphabets' in practically all sentences makes for a learning curve like a brick wall! The first two represent the same distinct syllables (hirigana and katakana) but katakana is used for 'foreign' words mostly. Kanji are the 'ideograms' imported from China long ago - there are several thousand of them and many have several different readings (though still phonetically distinct.) That means that meaning can be inferred in writing (through a suitable choice of Kanji) that isn't obvious when the sentence is spoken (except to a native listener who knows the possible written forms.) The capacity for poetic expression and for puns in a sentence is limitless! Knowing about 500 Kanji, apparently, sets you up sufficiently for reading the newspaper.