Vent Gleet

[rick]

** In the end it wasn't vent gleet. Best guess: it was feather pecking by the rest of the flock caused by her laying shell-less eggs. See 'Big Egg' and 'Implant for Blaze'. Will recognise vent gleet if it happens now though!**

As a relatively new chicken keeper there are lots of minor issues that I assume are just one of those things that come and go -
Like occasional looser droppings and some feathers missing from the underside of a hen.
But in the past few days the red skin on the underside of Blaze (and Betty to a lesser extent) has been a niggling problem that I felt must be connected with her somewhat wrinkly eggs of late. After a discussion with the vet today we are confident that it is a case of vent gleet.
Now I’m remembering that Brownie often had a messy bottom (from quite young, not all the time but quite often - I had come to think that was just how she was.)
Fortunately Blaze has stopped laying and we are getting some Nystatin (or similar) to clear up any fungal infection tomorrow.
I really hope this sorts out her and Betty who have had very few feathers under the vent for quite a while. They also had lice but I’m now thinking that was a secondary thing.
But what I’ve defiantly learnt from this is that messy bottoms leading to missing feathers is not just one of those things. We will have fluffy rears again!
I’m trying to think why this happened in the first place - the run is covered and I’m quite careful about changing food and water daily. I read one recommendation of not allowing drinkers to become green and slimy - well blow me down, you don’t say!!
Maybe the environment here is a little more prone to yeast growth - a bit too sheltered (?)
To many grapes? Surely not (hmmm? we are fond of a grape or three)

Note from Teabag - do not withdraw all grapes on this very circumstantial evidence. My bottom is quite fluffy thank you very much!

 

[rick]

I'm giving up on finding a website I trust to order Medistatin. Our vet would need to order in a quantity that would be prohibitive in price. I see that Dinosaw and Chris had a thread about it in relation to sour crop a couple of years ago. Also bought some Canesten cream today (external use of course).
Going to bath, canestan, avipro, yoghurt and ACV with until we’ve beat it and maybe look again for nystatin if that fails.

Poor Blaze - when I was putting the cream on she looked as red as a beetroot but come to think of it, it does look like athletes foot. Theory is it will have cooled down a lot by tomorrow morning - fingers crossed.

 

[dinosaw]

Here is the bhwt advice for gleet Rick, though I can't imagine a chicken of mine ever nodding off in a bath of epsom salts. Hope you see an improvement soon.


http://www.bhwt.org.uk/vent-gleet/

edit, I presume she does smell horrible.

 

[rick]

No, doesn't smell horrible dinosaw but I can't think what else it could be. From what I can glean- smelling bad is common but dependant on yeast strain. Dont know!
But I have done a worm egg count on sloppy droppings and nothing turned up. Just in case though I wormed 2 months ago.

 

[rick]

 

[dinosaw]

Was just wondering if it could be anything else like feather pecking, I think if the poo build up has been white/creamy then it probably is gleet though it is worth bearing in mind with brown messy bums that some birds are just really lazy when it comes to preening. In any case it isn't going to hurt to treat it, canestan isn't harmful and neither are epsom salts. I have observed over the years that some birds do produce runnier poos than others naturally in the same way that humans have different bowel habits and this can factor into how clean their tail feathers remain. The wrinkly eggs are just an age thing btw.

 

[rick]

Thanks dinosaw. Well if the Canestan doesn't clear up the redness then that will be pretty conclusive. I don't think she (or others) are feather pecking her but I've got a wildlife camera. Determined to get to the 'bottom' of this! The feather loss and redness started with both Blaze and Betty a couple months ago and been consistent since. Both are loose though I've only noticed that as a particular problem since watching more closely.

 

[rick]

Well it appears that the redness goes down after applying the Canestan but comes back over the next 48 hours (the time between bathing and applying more.) She does seem a lot less subdued and I’m assuming that is because she is more comfortable. I’ve been keeping an eye out for feather pecking - she has been preening a lot but that might be due to the baths.
What I really want to see is some new feathers coming through. Betty now has some patches of pin feathers but not across the whole area. She also had some nit clusters that had been hanging on through tick and thin (I wonder if nit clusters cause a feather not to be shed.) Got really annoyed by them and after reading that some owners clip vent feathers for better fertility (pluck them even - ouch) then I snipped them off with no apparent harm.
If Canestan is harmless (it absorbs quickly so I don’t think there’s much to ingest) as you say dinosaw then I think I'll apply it more frequently (like every day and without the bath) and see what happens then.

 

[chickenfan]

Grapes are extremely high in yeasts/moulds (the worst fruit there is) and I think much too sweet for chickens. I seem to recall someone saying even apples cause sour crop. I think dropping fruit and treats could be helpful.

 

[rick]

The grapes are an occasional treat but I hear what your saying Chickenfan. I'm pretty stumped as her bottom is as red as a traffic light this morning. I'm probably worrying too much, as long as she's not ill with it. Bt then she has been looking low until recently and is off lay following poor shell quality. It's a bit of a mystery!
Betty having similar but less dramatic things happening might be coincidence and, as dinosaw said, like people some have a bit of an odd constitution.
Just don't want to miss something that causes bigger problems later if I can avoid it.
I'll mither our vet about it again when she's back from holiday

 

[dinosaw]

Again I'm not saying you have a feather pecking problem but the skin is always very red where feather loss is due to this as well. I have always fed grapes in moderation and can't say I've ever had any problems up to now as a result, obviously don't feed them a whole punnet of the things but one or two a couple of times a week shouldn't hurt them, in the wild they would find berries in late summer and gorge on them. Treat for vent gleet, see if they improve, if they don't then assume feather pecking as the next most likely cause.

 

[rick]

Right, this is, quite possibly, me learning to recognise something for the first time. But I'm puzzled - there haven't been any feathers there fir a couple of months. Do they peck the skin where the feathers are emerging?

 

[dinosaw]

Chickens will peck anything that is red, (Mrs Dinosaw risks her fingers whenever she wears red nail varnish) so it could be the redness causing pecking which keeps the area red, a self perpetuating situation if you like. As you know pin feathers are also known as blood feathers so are ultra tasty treats for chickens, it is possible that if there is no escape from pecking that they will be consumed as quickly as they appear but you would see pinhole signs of where they had been pulled.

Edit: In addition would just say that this is just something to consider in addition to vent gleet not a suggestion that it isn't what you originally thought it was.

 

[rick]

No, I really do appreciate your suggestions.

Looking closer there seems to be inflammation around the feather bases and then the solid red area where there are no feathers. The blotches on the left are feather bases above the vent.

 

[dinosaw]

That looks really sore, this is a photo from one of my books in the feather pecking section and you can read the caption from the book. Whatever the initial cause of the feather loss there is a decent probability that the area is also being pecked.

 

[rick]

Right. As you say, whatever the initial cause it looks just like pecking. Thank you very much dinosaw!

 

[rick]

Bit of a breakthrough this morning. I've had Blaze quarantined since last night when she had a brief prolapse and the others were chasing her round the coop. Passing egg white like Brownie was doing which was scary. Lots of loose droppings overnight. This morning put her in the garden while I sorted out a partition in the coop for her and she did a loose dropping on the block paving which had a worm wriggling in it. About 10mm long but must be thin as when I tried to rinse it out in a fine sieve to get a better look it escaped. Wormed 2 months ago and no worm eggs evident. Hairworm maybe. A least now I have something to work on.
Have to order some more Flubenvet but have enough to do just Blaze for a week so start her off in isolation tonight and do them all in a couple of weeks is the plan.

 

[rick]

Sorry to turn this into a rolling saga but I’ve learnt some interesting things today.
Got home after putting Blaze in the partition today and setting the camera to watch her. When I got in she had escaped but seemed fine - picked her up and no redness at the rear for the first time in ages! I had mixed some anti peck with nappy cream and rubbed it around the area as I didn’t fancy spraying it more widely.
While I was inside watching the videos (she escaped at 11.15am after increasingly determined attempts) there was a commotion outside and Blaze was being chased round the coop by the others. Rushed out and picked her up and her bottom was red again from the pecking. Popped her back in the partition and she immediately laid a shell-less egg - no calcium at all but in a shell membrane. Picked up the egg that she had just burst by pecking it.
Phew!
So worms and a completely defective shell gland and you were spot on dinosaw - they have been pecking her raw. Up until recently I was getting occasional wrinkly eggs from her but I’m thinking now there were more that I didn’t get to see.
Sad thing is this was probably also happening to Brownie and the red splotches inside her vent may have been peck marks but the worms might not be the root cause of her shell gland packing up and it could be no different in the end result.
I feel a bit more empowered though this time round!

 

[dinosaw]

Quite surprising to hear of finding a worm at such an advanced stage so soon after you have done them Rick, do you get a lot of slugs/snails/worms in your run?, I've just done my "main" flock this last week and today let them out to free range today onto a pasture crawling in slugs which is completely counterproductive. In some ways confirming the feather pecking is a relief as it can be sorted, your problem as always with solving it will be your limited space.

 

[rick]

We get a lot of snails in the garden and a few wander into the run. Worms are scarce as the floor is solid.
It's just possible that she pooped on an innocent garden nematode minding it's own business but that would be particularly unfortunate, especially for the worm!
Separating her is giving me an opportunity to make sure that she eats all of the treatment although I can't see how she could have skipped it before.