Purebreeds and Hybrids

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Willow1234

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I have recently been told that you cannot mix pure breeds with hybrids.
It turned into a bit of an argument as I have already got several pure breeds mixed with hybrids and they seem to get on pretty well..
I am thinking of getting a few more pure breeds in the spring.
What are your thoughts on this please.
 
It's not whether they will get on, it's a question of the possible health risks of mixing vaccinated hybrids with unvaccinated purebreds. There can be problems if the hybrids are acting as carriers for diseases they are themselves immune to, and pass these on to the unprotected purebreds.
But I think it's fair to say that such problems are pretty unlikely, certainly like many other people I've always kept a mixture of birds and never had any problems, and have been advised by the respected breeder who i get my stock from that it's really not a problem as the hybrids are vaccinated with 'dead' viruses. It's very important to get healthy stock in the first place, as otherwise you may be buying all sorts of health problems, but although I know Chris and others will disagree with me, and will come up with horror stories, I think the risk of mixing vaccinated hybrids with unvaccinated birds is small in relation to the other advantages of a mixed flock (especially eggs all year round from the hard-working hybrids!)
 
Thanks for that.
I presume all is okay then if they have all been vaccinated. Both Purebreeds and Hybrids??
I must admit I do want them to go all together eventually.
I will slowly be phasing out the hybrids and moving more towards pure breeds. Although I will keep one or two hybrids for the colour of their eggs.
 
Not many purebreds get vaccinated as the vaccines come in expensive packs of 1,000 doses, and can't be stored, so they're uneconomic for smaller breeders not dealing with thoise sort of numbers. But yes, if the purebreds have been vaccinated then there would be no problems mixing them with hybrids. But as you gradually intend to phase in purebreds, if the vaccination question worries you, it may be hard to find the purebreds you want that have been vaccinated.
You just have to decide whether, for you, it's acceptable to mix vaccinated and unvaccinated birds, or to stick to all vaccinated, or all unvaccinated. The kind of hens they are is irrelevant to their vaccination status.
 
It's unlikely you'll have problems. I've never had an issue. Marigold is right in what she says: Hybrids can be carriers of diseases that they are immune to through vaccination, but there is another risk to be aware of...

Young Hybrids that have been vaccinated recently are basically carrying the disease and build up their immunity from this. If you mix them with un-immunised birds (your pure breeds) during the time the disease is active, you are effectively bringing disease into the flock.

If you buy Hybrids, get a list of Vaccinations from the breeder and check the time they need to be kept away from un-immunised hens. It's usually 2-3 weeks at POL before the last vaccination has worn off.
 
I breed faverolles in large and bantam, all my birds are vaccinated. I have not found it expensive to vaccinate, although the large doses may be off putting for some, however for 1,000 doses of Mareks vaccine the cost is only £8.95.

Tim has a point, newly vaccinated birds should really be kept separate in order for their immune system to develop antibodies. Saying all that the risk of vaccine disease to non-vaccinate birds is very, very low, and you are far more likely to track disease onto your land simply by visiting a show or poultry sale. Field virus or "wild" virus is far more virulent and pathogenic. Vaccinated birds will reduce spread of diseases.

Golden rules are buy healthy stock, don't mix young birds, match the temperaments of your breeds, good husbandry and plenty of space.
 
As Marigold says Willow we have a horror story to tell and we keep living it three years later. Our Pedigree flock was infected with ILT and IB simultaneously by bringing in two hybrids inoculated with live and active viruses (current practice and drinking water). Cost a lot in medication and even more with the stress. Our pet cockerel still gets ILT flareups three years on and struggles to eat and open his eyes. Our problem was that the hybrids shed the virus when stressed, so coming into a new environment they shed the virus. If we'd been bringing Pedigrees into a hybrid flock there might not have been a problem. We have had to keep our infected and uninfected flocks separate since then. Moving the occasional bird between flocks has sen ILT transmitted, but not IB.
 
Okay thanks thats all good advice.
When I get my new birds I intend to keep them separated from the rest for a good couple of months. So do vets vaccinate? Would it be a good idea to take them straight to the vets to get them vaccinated as soon as I get them?. They will then have a good 6 - 8 weeks for their immune system to adapt to the vaccine before I introduce them to the rest of the flock.
 
Further to Foxy's reply. If it is that cheap then I can see no reason to not vaccinate whether hybrids or pure breeds.
£8.95 for a 1000 doses seems pretty cheap to me.
 
Foxy vaccinates against Mareks but if you get a commercially- reared hybrid they will have been vaccinated against a whole lot of other diseases as well.
 
Marigold said:
Foxy vaccinates against Mareks but if you get a commercially- reared hybrid they will have been vaccinated against a whole lot of other diseases as well.
Click to expand...

I actually vaccinate against a host of the main poultry diseases, Mareks, IB and Mycoplasma. They vary in cost the most expensive being Mycoplasma at around £40 per 1,000 doses.

I have a schedule of vaccination which starts at a day old. and then the other vaccines are followed at a later date. The schedule is based on the birds developing antibodies to the vaccines and therefore protection. Some vaccines are given later at around 6 weeks old. It is important that during the vaccination phase that they are not exposed to potential virus as this would compromise the vaccination efficacy. It would be difficult to vaccinate older birds as the possibility is they may have been already exposed to some of these diseases, well that's the theory anyway :D

Generally speaking only commercial hybrids are vaccinated currently due to the density of rearing populations and the potential to spread pathogens is much higher.

In answer to your question regarding your vet vaccinating, this is a process that they would be unfamiliar with, and may not have the equipment or knowledge. As the product information details specific vaccination instructions, they would also be uncomfortable with this process in older birds as protection could not be guaranteed, plus the potential interaction with the birds own developed antibodies.
 
Ive copied a thread from Practical Poultry Forum in here - a dialogue about vaccinations between their resident vet and members. I've copied it rather than pasting the link as links to his forum tend not to come up live unless yuo are registered and logged in. Hope this isn't illegal but it does seem relevant to our discussion here.

Vaccinations -again -sigh.
11/08/12 at 11:46:48   Martin,

I am getting curious when seeing all these adverts for "fully vaccinated" hens.  On asking sellers what they are ''fully vaccinated"'  for, the sellers suddenly go all coy and answer every other question rather than the actual one asked, - such as providing worming schedules or info on feeding or housing. then just keep repeating the words ''fully vaccinated'' ad infinitum.

I know it is all a matter of semantics, but surely a bird could be classed as "fully vaccinated'' ie initial vaccine and then any booster required, against only one disease?

So from a vets pov What would you expect ''fully vaccinated'' to actually mean? ie what precise diseases would you class it to actually cover?

Or should this actully go in a section called ''trading standards queries'' rather than the ask the vet??

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MartinSmithVet
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Re: Vaccinations -again -sigh.
Reply #1 - 11/08/12 at 22:22:21   Alas there is no classification for fully vaccinated, it is like claiming a dog is fully vaccinated, when there are many other vaccines they can have above the basic.

I would generally suspect that a layer will be covered for Marek's, Infectious Bronchitis, Gumboro, Egg Drop Syndrome, Turkey ILT, Newcastles Disease and possibly mycoplasma.

If you are purchasing POL hybrids then this is possible, if they are pure breds, the chances are they are only covered for a few things and they need to tell you what they have been vaccinated for.
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Re: Vaccinations -again -sigh.
Reply #2 - 11/08/12 at 23:45:32   Thanks,

I am starting to  suspect some of the sellers are none too sure what fully vaccinated means themselves.  Thats quite a few vaccinations, I was thinking it would be more along the lines of salmonella mareks IB and gumboro.

 
Any idea how common is ILT and EDS in back yard flocks? Its not somthing I have ever been very worried about.


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Re: Vaccinations -again -sigh.
Reply #3 - 11/09/12 at 08:09:31   As I said you can keep vaccinating and vaccinating, some flocks are salmonella vaccinated and some are not, often it depends on the assurance scheme that the birds are in.  I do not think that EDS and ILT are major players in backyard flocks.

I agree that many vendors of birds may not know what they have been vaccinated for, and it is a real problem for me when seeing or being asked about a disease and the owner states they have been vaccinated, which is not of much help if I don't know what they have been vaccinated for, and this is coming from the people selling the poultry.

Vaccinations also make it impossible to perform some of the blood testing in flocks as they will give false positive results.

Vaccination is a nightmare in backyard hens!
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Re: Vaccinations -again -sigh.
Reply #4 - 11/09/12 at 09:29:04   But.....I thought, if someone administered birds vaccine/s records had to be kept??????
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Re: Vaccinations -again -sigh.
Reply #5 - 11/09/12 at 10:02:48   MartinSmithVet wrote on 11/09/12 at 08:09:31:
Vaccinations also make it impossible to perform some of the blood testing in flocks as they will give false positive results.

Vaccination is a nightmare in backyard hens!



Ah good point  - I hadn't thought of that, ( but of couse that is what they are on about with the bovine TB vaccine recently so I should have )  pity they don't automatically put some sort of marker in all vaccines.
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Re: Vaccinations -again -sigh.
Reply #6 - 11/09/12 at 18:29:27   FruGal wrote on 11/09/12 at 09:29:04:
But.....I thought, if someone administered birds vaccine/s records had to be kept??????


You are correct, but this does not have to be passed on unless requested.  It is a record as proof of treatment and evidence if ever questioned.
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Re: Vaccinations -again -sigh.
Reply #7 - 11/09/12 at 18:31:32   Eris wrote on 11/09/12 at 10:02:48:
MartinSmithVet wrote on 11/09/12 at 08:09:31:
Vaccinations also make it impossible to perform some of the blood testing in flocks as they will give false positive results.

Vaccination is a nightmare in backyard hens!



Ah good point  - I hadn't thought of that, ( but of couse that is what they are on about with the bovine TB vaccine recently so I should have )  pity they don't automatically put some sort of marker in all vaccines.


Marker vaccines are expensive to create and expensive to test for, as most layers are only kept commercially for one year and broilers for months, it does not make financial sense for the pharmaceutical companies to develop a niche product like this
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Re: Vaccinations -again -sigh.
Reply #8 - Yesterday at 18:47:53   I have the offer of a vaccine for my birds for IB and something else that goes with it, is it really worth doing, it wont cost much but is there much risk to the birds from the desiese or the vac.  As far as i am aware none of mine have had IB but we are on a shootinestate with pheasants all round.  I believe it is an anual one.
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