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H the boat

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Hi everyone ,
I am a newby to this forum and still trying to read cover to cover. I am English and have some good grazing land in Spain. I started a Free Range pilot scheme during June of this year, with 24 day old RIR's, which were supposed to be all pullets.
Although they were sold as sexed, I still expected to find several roosters among them.At 8 weeks they were all doing well, and by then, in an outside coop with a very large enclosed run. At 10 weeks, the fence netting was increased to 6 foot high, but many of them were able to fly over the top. at 14 weeks I decided to let them have their way and opened the fencing.
Animal predators, are not a serious problem where I am, and I have a terrior dog, who thinks the flock are his personal property and protects them. At 15 weeks they were nearly full grown but definatly acting like teenagers, often facing up to each other in mock fights etc. About this time I heard at least one trying to crow like a rooster, but I was still unable to tell which was which by their feathers.
The following weekend on the Saturday evening, 6 were missing. The next day Sunday evening another 8 were gone. No noise, no feathers or other signs.( Human predators). My dog was very concerned and is now seriously challenging anyone who dared to even approach near the boundries. The following Sunday there was what sounded like a serious dog fight, and I managed to just glimpse the van driving off, but couldnt get the number. They had still managed to get yet another chicken.
I was now down to Nine. Earlier this is week Number 23, one of the chickens which I was pretty sure was a hen, looked very poorly during the day and stood by herself, did not eat and did not want to go to the coop at night. I made her comfortable for the night in the garage, but was dead by morning. no symptoms or injuries.
It is now week 25, those remaining have had their Moult and are now fully feathered again, they are bright and appear healthy and will forage all day and still demand the Kilo of growers pellets each evening between the 8 of them, before they retire. BUT none of them shows any signs of laying, or of being a rooster.
In the meantime I had obtained another 12 Barred Rock pullets, supposed to be 5 days old but probably were nearer 10 days. I have had them for nearly 3 weeks. They are fully chick feathered, are in an outside pen with a wire top and are flying the full length of the pen and back, not just flapping wings and hoping. they are now the size of ferral pidgeons, and eating nearly a Kilo of starter crumb per day between them from a 12 port feeder. These youngsters will soon have to be let out to the enclosed run.
Any ideas how I can protect them, ( other than a 24 hour shotgun guard ).

Commercial producers of eggs and meat in this region, only produce within enclosed buildings, and do not produce free range eggs, the fresh meat is either white skinned 8/9 week broilers, or so called country chicken, which is 12 week RiR's or similar breeds, intensively reared in huge covered enclosures.... Unknown to most EU consumers including the UK, is that the big five supermarket chains now import more than 70% of chicken and chicken products, frozen from Brazil and the Far East, and often sold as locally produced.
 
Hello H The Boat and welcome to the forum. That's quite a story! So people steal chickens where you live? I have been told that theft in Spain is even worse than England and now I believe it.

I know it is possible to sex day old chicks but it is a very skilled job. However it sounds to me like you have pullets because you would have noticed big combs, crowing and a change in stance by now I think. Pedigree birds lay late, so 26 to 30 weeks would be the range based on my experience.

Fortunately here origins of meat are carefully controlled and have to be clearly specified on the packaging. If it doesn't say reared in France and processed in France it isn't going to sell well. No meat from England is sold here as no-one would buy it. Lots of small local producers supply local supermarkets from their free range production because the butcher section is a franchise, not part of the Company. We buy from local farmers direct sometimes. It is a system now unique in the EU, or so they said on TV last month.

Sounds like you need higher fencing and some security system. Here everyone has free ranging or line tethered dogs for security and they live outside in all weathers- not just to stop theft but mainly for predators. Chickens will only fly out for a reason, so if they can see the grass is greener outside they will go for it. Alternatively bullying will see them make a desperate escape bid.
 
Hi H the boat, and welcome from me, too.
Sorry to hear about the thefts, after all your hard work rearing them. I agree with Chris, you're going to have to invest in some much more solid fencing and security, not to keep the hens in but to keep the two-legged rats out. You don't say whether they're in a secure coop at night, and it sounds as if thieves can just walk in and pick them off when they're roosting. Probably you'll need at least a covered weld mesh run, or a solid shed where you can lock them in safely at night which is when the thefts take place, and also some electric fence round the perimeter of their ranging field. Also perhaps solar security lights around the run and coop area. Yes it's lovely for them to be free range during the day, but much better for them to be locked away and hard to get at overnight.
Yes, I agree with Chris that RIRs probably wouldn't lay until older than 25 weeks, and at this time of year, when there is so little daylight, probably they won't make it into lay until after the solstice, maybe sometime in January, but will be good strong birds who will lay well by then.
Do keep in touch and let us know how you get on.
 
Hi Chrismahon and Marigold,
thank you for the welcome. My chickens are in a secure large hen house often before it is fully dark, and my dog stands guard within 50 meters all night. I often wonder when he sleeps. My chickens are being stolen during the day time, whilst they are free ranging. I am presently using only part of my land near my house, about 2 acres for the birds. But as you say no matter how big the run the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

I am not sure if the birds are pure breed or Hybrid I suspect the latter. The only source of local supply, being the animal feed merchants in the next town, who obtain them to order from another local producer, who hatches chicks to maintain his own flocks. The only choice when ordering is Red or White. ( unhelpful or language difficulty).To my surprise the most recent batch were all black with the yellow spot on the head. They have in three weeks, changed to the typical Barred Rock colouring, and are growing visibly each day.

Security is a problem, particularly as although I have lived here more than 14 years, I am still not regarded as permanent, and considered to be a legitimate target... The "Police Local" ( employed by the town hall ) are fully aware of the situation, not only for myself ,also others in the locality, and do not regard thefts from us by the locals as a crime.
The chickens were usually in two or three groups whilst free ranging, and my dog would generally just keep them well within the boundries, but could not watch all of them all the time . Now there is only a few left, he herds them closer to the house like a flock of sheep. I am told, that the thieves watch and entice the birds with a few handfuls of corn at the right moment and are gone within minutes. I do not notice a loss until the evening when they come back to roost.
I have ordered an electric fence net, primarily to better manage the range. It is fine at this time of year with plenty of vegetation ( I am about 3000 ft up in the flatlands of the foothills) but by the end of May there will be very little grass until the following September. Perhaps I should consider a barbed wire perimeter fence, Electrified..... without the warnings signs.....to try and control the predators.

Getting back to the chicks, they are in a solid brick pen about 2 meters by 1 meter and just over a meter high with a half inch weld mesh top, one end has a roof covering and they have a smaller insulated box to sleep in, with its entrance on the side. They are fed from a large auto feeder, where they have to put their heads through a shallow angled tube. There is virtually no spillage or waste. During the last three days they have consumed nearly 4 kilo of formulated chick starter crumb, and are growing at an enormous rate. Am I feeding them too much, or are they just hungry birds. They are very active and fly around the pen like starlings, not in formation ,but when one gets the urge they all join in. Their feathers are now dark grey with the typical white fleck all over. I have no experience with this breed and do not know what to expect. They are quite tame and do not get spooked when I renew their feed and water, and are now the size of average pidgeons. At this rate, within a month I shall have to let them out into a run during the day, to at least see the other birds through a fence...
 
Hello H and welcome to the forum.

I haven't had pure Barred Rocks but have had cross breeds and they were the greediest birds I have ever had, constantly at the feeder, one of them to the point that it got fat enough to stop laying!. They do grow to be big birds with a large breast and before broilers were a meat breed, but even bearing that in mind 100g per bird per day at 4-5 weeks old seems beyond the pale and suggests that you must be getting wastage from some source be it vermin or spillage. To put it into context a full grown laying hybrid churning out a 65g egg per day will only be consuming 130-150g of pellets per day, I recently had 20 chicks of various breeds and sizes and they weren't getting through 4kg of crumb in a week at that age.

With regards to your human vermin I don't mean to be discouraging but I have always found that local practices in farming tend to exist for a reason, if local producers don't free range their hens that will be because it isn't economically viable to do so in that area and wastage due to theft is probably one of the factors contributing to that along with demand and price. Unfortunately an electric fence with enough power to keep out your thieves would probably prove fatal to your chickens.
 
Hi Dinosaw, thanks for the welcome,
I have double checked and modified the feeding system many times during its design stage and there is virtually no spillage or scattering of the feed by the chicks, and definatly no vermin or predators . The principle object of the design of the feeder was to make available the feed on demand, with the minimum of waste, which now apparently works very well.
I take your point about greedy birds, but how do I restrict the quantity. The feeder has 12 ports for 12 chicks. If I restrict the number of ports to say 6 will that still allow them to feed without fighting or bullying.
The container was designed to allow for 6 or 7 days feed, if I remove it on a daily basis, it defeats the object of its purpose.
Is it possible to mix another low cost product with the crumb to bulk up the roughage element and control weight gain that way?... the birds are not yet old enough to graze on natural growing plants.

On another point, in your experience do the Barred Rock chicks continue to fly as well as they are doing now, as they become bigger and heavier. My last batch of RIR's were able to easily fly over a 6 ft fence at 12 weeks, without even thinking about it... I was told at the time I should not attempt to clip their wing at that age, and that they would grow out of it. They didnt, which eventually led me to opening the fence.

I take your point re electric fencing, but it was always intended to provide a form of portable control netting for range management for strip feeding, which now seems doubtful if the birds can fly over the top.
The current project was originally intended to be a pilot program to test the feasability, I have about 10 acres of available land.... Apart from my lack of specific breed knowledge, the problems i am facing are not the birds or the environment, but the unscrupulous acts of a few greedy human predators.
Incidently, the Spanish commercial egg and broiler meat producers, still do so mainly on a battery caged system, to control the environment as well as feed and daylight. Broiler meat is ready within 8/9 weeks, egg producers start laying at 15/16 weeks for no more than 2 seasons. There is virtually no true free range production now, although 10 years ago it was the norm. However the demand for free range eggs and true free range meat is increasing rapidly. The producers associations blame this state of affairs on massive and virtually uncontrolled low cost imports, from Brasil and the Far East.
 
I don't think you have any option other than to clip their wings H. That's ⅔ off the primary feathers of one wing (only) and no more because the lower section is full of blood. The primaries are on the outer wing section. This will unbalance flight sufficiently to stop them getting over a 4 foot fence. At the next moult they should be laying and the extra weight will prevent them from flying so high. If not you will have to repeat the clipping which is a time consuming job if you have a lot.

You may discover that chickens are normally kept indoors because of the temperature extremes- something we have discovered this far South of France. 40C is their maximum and at that we are hosing down the ground to cool them so they may need taking inside to an air conditioned environment. At -10C, depending on the coop, they may need some heat and a dull emitter may do the job? We are currently looking for a house with a good stone barn so that we can take them inside as required and section the breed sets off.

Daylight hours may not be a problem so far South. We get an extra 1 ¼ hours at the Winter solstice compared to mid-England and our chickens only stop laying due to age, moulting or extreme cold. In Spain you will get even more daylight in Winter, but at your altitude I can expect cold to be a problem.
 
I'm sorry H but can't help you with regard to flying ability as I took those particular birds at 18 weeks and they were already quite chunky, though I would say from experience with 'big' birds that 8-10 weeks is probably when they reach their optimum flying condition, after that the weight gain outpaces any increase in the strength of their wings.
The feed consumption is puzzling, was it as much for your RIR chicks? it could just be that the chick crumb you are getting isn't of the same sort of composition as we are used to over here. Reducing the number of feeding ports wouldn't make any difference to be honest, you would just get the dominant birds feeding first, the only way you can manage intake would be to remove the feeder which as you say defeats the object.

The problem with thieves is once they have identified an easy target with no risk they will be back time after time, unless you are willing to break the law yourself and risk the consequences (which in a foreign country I wouldn't advise) then without police assistance you are on a bit of a hiding to nothing with regards to the free ranging it would seem.
 
Hi again chris,
thanks for the advice. for my few remaining RIR's clipping one wing will not be a problem, I assume roosters would be the same. At what age should I consider clipping the wing on the Barred Rock's.

Re climate, I am in the Murcia region, we are fortunate that we rarely get extreme temperatures, despite the elevation. In the summer, the free air temperature out of the direct sun, rarely rises above 80*f although if you stand in the sun without a hat the brain fries. Winter lasts from late November till late January, when the day temperature is usually not less than 17*C and only occasionally less for a few hours. Even on the few occasions that it has snowed during the second week of January (rare).
Night temperatures are a problem for me personally as I have accustomed myself to a milder climate. During the summer it will be 2 or 3 degrees below day temp, but during the winter it can drop to 6 or 7 degrees C, and with an occasional Northerly wind ,feels considerably colder. But if you are out of any wind and in the sun, you will be very warm working in shirt sleeves right through Christmas.
We rarely have strong winds for more than a few hours, and even less rain. In fact up to late August this year we were in drought conditions for nearly 4 years, and many of the Almond trees died. Since August we have had more than normal rainfall and the ground water table is said to be rising again.
Being at this elevation in a rural area does man that for most of the year we do get early morning condensation in the form of a heavy dew, which supports the green stuff and many of the fruit trees. The only serious weather fault is the occasional Jet Stream Air Frost from the upper atmosphere, in late January, which can and sometimes does destroy the newly formed Almonds on the trees in less than half hour.
 
Thanks again Dinosaw,
the feed is the same commercially produced chick starter crumb from the Spanish branch of "Nutreco", I had 24 RIR chicks in the pen then and they still took less than a kilo a week. they were smaller and did not grow so fast, but overall their consumption was still substantially less than the Rocks.

On the predator side, if an electrified fence is inside my clearly marked boundry, they must be in the wrong by entering my property, to get shocked.
It must be the same as the local hunter who went with his dogs onto private land after a lone lamb. It was unfortunate for the hunter that the owner of the lamb fired a shotgun at the dogs and the hunter was in the line of fire.
 
If theft wasn't a problem, how many birds would you ultimately hope to keep? Sounds as if in time you'd have to be prepared to double or treble the extent of any precautions you might take, and this could be expensive. I'm quite surprised by the daytime thefts, as it must be much easier to lift a few when they're roosting and asleep, so it looks as if a combination of dog and good coops etc are helping there.
Perhaps a really powerful electric fence round the perimeter of the grazing area, enough to really knock back an intruder, with non-electrified chicken netting inside this boundary to retain the birds, if you could overcome the flying problem by wing clipping in the early weeks, until they settle down into lay anyway? You could give them a relatively small grazing area and move it on regularly, which would be good practice anyway.
 
good evening Marigold,
As I said earlier this project started out as a pilot scheme, to prove the feasibility of modern free ranging. There is a substantial demand for true free range eggs, and virtually no regional supply. Eggs are transported in, on a very small scale from other EU states by individual stores, but no where near enough to satisfy a growing demand.

My project if it ever gets off the ground, would be firstly to establish a core flock and then rapidly increase the numbers to about 300 laying birds by the end of the second year. I had done a lot of home work on this and had already planned to have a number of separate coops and portable runs to accommodate the birds, without the inevitable infighting problems. I fortunately do have sufficient land and facility, but did not realise the mentality of the rural local nationals.
To their way of thinking, if it grows from the ground, or is not firmly chained to a spot, they have a right to take it, regardless of who owns it, planted it or whose ground it is. They put nothing back into the land and deny any responsibility, even when caught red handed.

My original intentions after the initial flock's had been established, was to eventually start hatching my own chicks, and develop a best performing strain of breed. there is a ready market for the inevitable surplus roosters as free range meat birds.

This project is not and was never expected to be a One Week Wonder, or a get rich quick scam, I am too old for most of that... But I would like to see it develop to a properly and ecologically managed natural food source, where both the land and the birds receive the benefit and the best of both worlds. Most of Spain (other than a small number of intensive veg areas) is not intensively cultivated, the land producing one crop a year, when many of the same areas could easily produce a second crop and or animal husbandry. The mental will is not there when they can steel it from somebody else and rarely be penalised.
 
I really do sympathise with your situation H but it seems to me that as an outsider anything you do will probably always put you in the wrong locally. If you do want to try the electric fence method as a deterrent then do some research into electric security fencing, a standard energiser suitable for chicken protection will be ineffective as your thieves could easily just earth the fence with a couple of planks layed against it. With regards to breeding in future be aware that this can be a very expensive enterprise when carried out at any scale, the incubators are expensive especially. For viable laying hens, Barred rocks are not ideal, decent dual purpose birds if you were planning to take some for the table yourself but not the best layers in the world and feed consumption as you are finding is high, on the plus side they do lay in winter unlike some other pure breeds. We have a member who free range farms in Greece and he uses Hyline Hybrids presumably bought as day old chicks and finds these excellent for the purpose. I have looked on the Hyline site and they have a Spanish distributor whose email is [email protected] which may at least give you a different option for birds than your local feed supplier. I really do hope you can get it to work for you it is such a shame when the human element comes in to spoil things.
 
You can clip the wings once they have full flight feathers H, bearing in mind they will shed them and grow new within a few months and you will need to repeat the process.

Regards the breed. As Dinosaw said it can be expensive to start breeding and fraught with problems. As you say cockerels can be eaten but not many breeds make good eating and lay acceptably well. RIR is OK I think, but anything Leghorn based laying prolific white eggs will be no good. So I think you will need to concentrate on the egg side as that is fundamentally your project. The only breed we have which is dual purpose is Transylvanian Naked Necks, but broodiness is a huge problem even though they taste great, so 150 eggs a year is going to be tops with a lot of hassle breaking broodies and keeping them out of the nest boxes to prevent squabbling. Not something I would recommend taking on in large numbers.
 
Good morning Dinosaw.
thanks for the continued encouragement. I will look on the link you have given me later today, although my next batch of new born is not planned till end of January
Having spoken to other ex-pats from neighbouring rural towns, it appears that my thoughts re the predators are on the right lines. The pattern is that the local professional thieves will get past most types of security at first try, but dont like retailiation. When they find that you are prepared to go beyond the law as they do, they find somewhere else. Unfortunately most times this will be by the second or third occurance. But by the same token after the first time they spread the word to others in their boasting and then you get all the chancers trying to have ago. It seems that the first effective retaliation, whether it is shot gun injuries, broken arms or legs, or merely capture and uncomfortable detention for several days without food or water is more than sufficient to permanently deter most. The word goes round the same way... trying to involve the town hall or the Law enforcement system is counter productive... Although Spain is rapidly becoming a very advanced and ever growing economy in the mass populated areas, in rural areas it is still the law of the Wild West, shoot first and if they are still around ask questions later. H.
 
chrismahon said:
You can clip the wings once they have full flight feathers H, bearing in mind they will shed them and grow new within a few months and you will need to repeat the process.

Good morning Chris,
Thanks for the advice, it is this sort of experience that I lack, and all suggestions are always welcome. It will probably be a year or more before I have gathered enough information and scale experience to make rational decsions on types and breeds. In the meantime overcoming the present problems are all part of the Pilot scheme.
I noticed today, that several of the Rock chicks, are developing a brownish colour at the back of the head and neck, all have lost the yellow head spot. They are very well settled and there is no squabaling or pecking. I shall delay wing clipping until they are big enough to go in the run, and only then if they are flying over the fencing. H
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