Lump (infected?) Near breast bone

[mattigil]

Hi all,

I'm new to this forum so I hope I'm ok to make this thread.
2 of our cuckoo marans have not been laying for over 2 months now and I couldn't figure out what their issues are.
I picked one up the other day and felt around her whole body and was surprised to see a lump on her breast near the middle bone I think. It seemed as thought it might have been infected but it was hard and not oozing with anything or leaking. It did smell a bit weird too. I then picked up the other cuckoo maran and found out that she also had the same problem but hers was bigger.

I'm really not sure what the cause is, I've been reading online and only things that may sound similar are breast blister, sour crop and maybe an infection from MS?

I really don't know what it could be and how to try and treat them and would appreciate any advise from anyone who might know a bit more or have the experience. I've attached a photo below as well.

 

[rick]

Hi, I've never seen this before but it does fit the description of a breast blister very well. Happening to both is curious - what do they roost on? A trip to the vet in any case seems necessary.

 

[mattigil]

Hi, I've never seen this before but it does fit the description of a breast blister very well. Happening to both is curious - what do they roost on? A trip to the vet in any case seems necessary.

Thanks for your reply Rick. The fact that it's happened to two of them seems to suggest breast blister to me as well but wasn't too sure to be honest.

We made square beams for them to roost on, I don't have a photo of it on my phone but I can hopefully take one tomorrow and put it up here. Could the fact that they're square shape rather than round be the issue?

 

[Marigold]

Hi mattigil, and welcome to the Forum. I’m sorry it’s with such a worrying query. I agree with Rick - we couldn’t really advise you about something like this, and especially without even seeing the hen. A trip to the vet seems indicated. Probably they may prescribe antibiotics if the lumps are infected.
But you’ll still need to know the cause. it’s very odd that two birds are affected in the same place. Do they roost with the others on the same perch? Could it possibly be due to some sort of friction or abrasion from the perch, or anywhere else they might rub against? I see you say your perches have square edges. It’s usually recommended that the edges are rounded off, to prevent that sort of problem. I suppose it’s natural for any bird to roost on a rounded sort of branch. Perches don’t have to be circular, just not have sharp edges and be wide enough, about 2inches. Yes a picture would be helpful.
How many other birds do you have, and have you had a chance to examine all of them just as carefully?

 

[Marigold]

I’ve been looking up breast blisters and it appears to be more of a problem with heavy breeds and turkeys, whose legs are too weak to support weight and so they sit a lot with consequent pressure on their breastbone. Wet and dirty litter predisposes this pressure to make an infected blister.
It doesn’t sound very likely in your case, but do they sit down a lot during the day?

 

[mattigil]

Thanks for your replies.

I'm just waiting for one of our neighbour to give me the details about a vet as our local vets isn't accepting any new patients.

I've attached so more photos below which shows their perch. I will hopefully be taking these off and rounding them to eliminate that as a cause.

I've also checked our Rhode Island red today but she doesn't have an issue with her chest area (but she has stopped laying as well for a while and kind of lost her tail, not sure if that's part of moulting?). Our blue copper maran doesn't have any issues either with her chest but it does seem as though her feathers near her breast bone are very thin and not many of them. No issues with our Cheshire blue either.

Unfortunately I've had a lot going on personally over the past few months and also been busy making a duck coop and run, so I've not managed to have time for the chickens as much.

 

[Marigold]

Are the perches the black-edged pieces in the bottom photo? If so, they look really uncomfortable to me. Not only are the edges too sharp but they aren’t deep enough for the hens to get their feet round comfortably. I’d advise changing them for smooth, planed wood, with edges sanded down to round them off, 4-5cms wide and deep. Also, they need a flat side on top. I may be misreading your photo, but it looks as if the birds have to rest their breastbones on a sharp edge, - which could well be the cause of their problems.
If this is so, they should be OK once you’ve made new perches, but it would be good to get a vets advice on the sore places, which may need medication to sort out any infection first.

One more point - from what I’ve been reading about breast blisters, it does seem that a lack of deep, dry, clean bedding in the run may be another possible cause. Maybe you might consider removing the old bedding in the first picture, as it’s not very clean and this could be causing infection, as well as being very thin and thus hard to sit on. I would recommend 10 cms of Aubiose (shredded hemp) or similar, which is easy to keep clean if you do a daily poo pick.

Have you had any trouble with redmite on your wooden coops etc this year? If so, now is a good time to try to get on top of it, as it’s getting cooler and so their reproduction rate will be slowing down.

 

[MrsBiscuit]

Hi Mattigil,

Firstly, welcome to the Forum!
Secondly, don't beat yourself up, we have all experienced periods when we haven't been able to spend as much time as we'd like with our birds, the important thing is that you have asked for help.
Thirdly, I agree with what Marigold has said regarding the perches. I am not familiar with breast blisters, in all my time keeping birds, and my sense is that its the perches. They do need to be 'poles' as opposed to what look like 'shelves' so they can get their claws around them, and perch. Marigold gives the right dimensions, and don't be tempted to go for a round pole, you want a rounded off square section.

 

[mattigil]

Thanks for your reply and advice again Marigold. I think the app I'm using to go on the forum is causing my photos to upload pixelated so apologies for that!

Its my in experience that let to me not realising about the perches until now, but I will hopefully sort them out ASAP, the width of them is ok but as you said the depth is not enough and I'll need to get some bigger pieces to use instead. Would thick enough branches be good do you think? I would obviously disinfect them and spray them for red mites as well before using them but I was thinking of using branches instead of going and buying new pieces of wood.

I will hopefully follow up on the vet and get them treated hopefully regardless of the cause but hopefully I can eliminate the cause of it to prevent it from happening again later.

Thanks for the advice for the run bedding too. We use wood chippings for the outdoor run area, shavings for the coop and straw for the nesting boxes. One of our issues for the outdoor run was that as we had ducks in the same area, they'd made a mess of the area and made it pretty wet, but thankfully we've moved the ducks to a separate coop and run now and now working to making the chicken coop more ideal for the chickens. We will be cleaning the dirty wood chippings this weekend and putting some new chippings in as well as hopefully having an area with just sand on it for them. We've also covered this area now so no rain will come through.

Regarding red mites, we've made this coop and run 4 months ago and sprayed it for red mites (I try and regularly check the perches for red mites but I've not seen any yet), but as you suggested as well, we'll hopefully clean it and respray this weekend again.

I really appreciate your advice and help!

 

[mattigil]

Hi Mattigil,

Firstly, welcome to the Forum!
Secondly, don't beat yourself up, we have all experienced periods when we haven't been able to spend as much time as we'd like with our birds, the important thing is that you have asked for help.
Thirdly, I agree with what Marigold has said regarding the perches. I am not familiar with breast blisters, in all my time keeping birds, and my sense is that its the perches. They do need to be 'poles' as opposed to what look like 'shelves' so they can get their claws around them, and perch. Marigold gives the right dimensions, and don't be tempted to go for a round pole, you want a rounded off square section.

Thanks for your kind words and advice too MrsBiscuit!

 

[Marigold]

Hi mattigil, I agree with Mrs B about not beating yourself up, and I wasn’t meaning to be critical!

I do really think you need to get new wood, the dimensions I suggest. A good perch, or set of perches, is essential equipment, the most comfortable for the hens, and it would appear that the wrong kind has already led to problems for your birds. If you tried to use branches, they would not be level or horizontal. Hens always like to use the highest available perch, so on an odd-shaped perch you might well get unwanted competition for the top spot. Also, the branches would be more difficult to fix firmly and securely in place than a regular beam or pole. You don’t need pre-treated wood, just plain untreated will be best.

How many hens have you got? You seem to have at least two very long perches. From your experience of where they actually use them, maybe you could reduce the length of the ones they use? If the hens were all roosting at the same time, (eg at night if they prefer outside perches to being in the coop,) you should allow 25 cms (10 inches) of perch per bird - and a bit more if you might get more hens in the future.
Do they want to sleep in the coop? If not, this might indicate redmite in there. .

 

[Margaid]

If you use Aubiose or something similar as Marigold suggests you can use that in the coop and the nest boxes. Straw isn't a good idea as it makes a perfect hiding place for Redmite, which by the way look like tiny grey specks when they haven't been feeding. Everyone on here was inexperienced once ...

 

[bigyetiman]

Hi and welcome to the forum, we were all newbies once. The main thing is you realised you had a problem and sought advice, and it is easy to put right.
Look forward to hearing how you get on, we are a friendly bunch

 

[mattigil]

Thanks everyone for your advice.

So over the weekend we managed to do a deep clean of the whole coop, replacing the old perches with some 2 by 2 inch perches which the chickens really like now. I've learnt from the past and the new perches have the flat side up (before the point of the square edge was facing up) and the edges are also fairly smoothened so it should be a lot more comfortable for them. Also realised that we were starting to get red mites (that's to the member who reminded me to check for the mites), despite me having sprayed it fully a few months ago when we built the new coop and run. But all been cleaned and sprayed and will keep an eye out for any signs of red mites again in a few weeks. Also cleaned the run area again and went with wood bark chippings and also provided them with a sand bath area as well, just waiting for the grass to grow again for us to let them loose on their grass runs as well.

Unfortunately our local vet isn't accepting any new patients as another local vet had recently closed so all their patients joined this one. I managed to contact another vets but unfortunately they are charging £38 just for an initial consultation which I don't have. But on the upside, both the cuckoo marans chest area seems to be clearing up (one of them seems fully healed and has feathers growing back in that area).

I will keep an eye out on them and hopefully they will recover.

I have noticed though since yesterday, one of the cuckoo marans seems to have a problem in one of its eyes, it was keeping one eye closed quite a while yesterday and today after closer inspection, despite her keeping her eye open like normal today, she seemed to have less vision from that side and her eye was very watery. Not sure if someone has any suggestions regarding this.

Thanks again everyone for your help and support!

 

[Marigold]

Well done for getting all that sorted out, I’m glad it’s paying off in terms of the chicken's health and comfort. If the injuries are healing now, that would seem to confirm the diagnosis of unsuitable perches. They will thank you for improving these!

As you say, probably no need for a vet visit, if they’re getting better, but keep an eye on things. It’s good to have some antiseptic spray, suitable for chickens, in your first aid kit, to use if accidents or injuries occur. When something happens, you need it immediately. This one is good https://amzn.to/3g6gWBK I just got the smallest pack, for use on emergency, so if I needed more I would have time to get it in stock. I just threw away my previous unused pack, when I saw it was outdated in 2011!

Make sure the woodchip on the floor doesn’t contain any thorns or prickles. Woodchip is OK if it’s from larger chipped branches, but can be a risk if it’s from hedgerow cuttings containing hawthorn, sloe or other prickly stuff. The chickens might tread on a thorn and get bumblefoot, a painful infection in the pad of their foot. It would be worth reading the article in the link below, about bumblefoot, as there are other possible, avoidable causes for this painful condition including unsuitable perches and wet dirty bedding.

Good to have had a go at the red mite, but don’t think that battle is ever won. The little devils get right into any cracks and joins in woodwork, lay hundreds of eggs and reproduce very fast, especially in summer. These articles on the main Poultrykeeper website have some information, and you can find other useful threads in the Pests and Predators section of the Forum.
https://poultrykeeper.com/external-problems/

Is the Marans having any difficulty breathing, or is her nose discharging? Any snicking noises, as if she is sneezing? Feeding, drinking, pooing normally? Not sitting hunched up or looking unhappy?
Have you wormed them with Flubenvet when they arrived?

 

[mattigil]

Well done for getting all that sorted out, I’m glad it’s paying off in terms of the chicken's health and comfort. If the injuries are healing now, that would seem to confirm the diagnosis of unsuitable perches. They will thank you for improving these!

As you say, probably no need for a vet visit, if they’re getting better, but keep an eye on things. It’s good to have some antiseptic spray, suitable for chickens, in your first aid kit, to use if accidents or injuries occur. When something happens, you need it immediately. This one is good https://amzn.to/3g6gWBK I just got the smallest pack, for use on emergency, so if I needed more I would have time to get it in stock. I just threw away my previous unused pack, when I saw it was outdated in 2011!

Make sure the woodchip on the floor doesn’t contain any thorns or prickles. Woodchip is OK if it’s from larger chipped branches, but can be a risk if it’s from hedgerow cuttings containing hawthorn, sloe or other prickly stuff. The chickens might tread on a thorn and get bumblefoot, a painful infection in the pad of their foot. It would be worth reading the article in the link below, about bumblefoot, as there are other possible, avoidable causes for this painful condition including unsuitable perches and wet dirty bedding.

Good to have had a go at the red mite, but don’t think that battle is ever won. The little devils get right into any cracks and joins in woodwork, lay hundreds of eggs and reproduce very fast, especially in summer. These articles on the main Poultrykeeper website have some information, and you can find other useful threads in the Pests and Predators section of the Forum.
https://poultrykeeper.com/external-problems/

I will have a look at the red mite section thanks! Never-ending battle as you said but hopefully if I keep on top of things, it will pay off.

In regards with the antiseptic spray, I've got this purple spray from omlet which I've used when one of the chickens pecked another's comb when they were getting their pecking order in place but I wasn't too sure whether I should use it near my chicken's eye as the spray is pretty purple (didn't feel comfortable to spray it on her eye and potentially make things worse).

 

[mattigil]

Make sure the woodchip on the floor doesn’t contain any thorns or prickles. Woodchip is OK if it’s from larger chipped branches, but can be a risk if it’s from hedgerow cuttings containing hawthorn, sloe or other prickly stuff. The chickens might tread on a thorn and get bumblefoot, a painful infection in the pad of their foot. It would be worth reading the article in the link below, about bumblefoot, as there are other possible, avoidable causes for this painful condition including unsuitable perches and wet dirty bedding.

Also thanks for the advise about the woodchips, thankfully my dad's got a wood chipper at the farm that we use to chip our own woods so I'm confident of the contents [emoji1362]

 

[mattigil]

Is the marans having any difficulty breathing, or is her nose discharging? Any snicking noises, as if she is sneezing? Feeding, drinking, pooing normally? Not sitting hunched up or looking unhappy?
Have you wormed them with Flubenvet when they arrived?

All three marans seemed to have a bit of sneezing, with no discharge or visible or audible breathing difficulty for quite a while (didn't notice it when I bought them from a local lady who sells chickens) but they seem to have over come that the past month or so. She seems to be normal, at times over past couple of daya has hunch up whilst standing, but eating, drinking and pooping normally.

Is the Flubenvet the same as Vermx?

Unfortunately I'm not as educate about the whole worming process etc as my brother used to deal with that but he's stuck down south due to their whole covid-19 situation [emoji2359].

 

[Marigold]

No, Vermex is sold as a digestive tonic which MAY help the chickens’ gut to resist worm infestation. It is not proven to be effective as a wormer and cannot claim to be. It may help improve the condition of a poorly bird but basically healthy birds don't need it. However, if it makes the owner feel better, that’s fine.
The only effective wormer licensed for poultry that doesn’t contaminate the eggs and is available without a vets prescription is Flubenvet. It’s available both as treated pellets and as a pot of powder which can be added to normal feed. Both ways require treatment for 7 days, to deal with worm eggs that hatch over a period of time in the hens’ gut. Unless you have a bigger flock, it’s easier to use the powder and mix it in with a measured amount of feed, either straight pellets for them to eat as normal, or in an appetising measured mix of small portions of nutritious treats such as sunflower seeds, mealworms and corn, with a few added pellets. A pot of powder contains 20 doses, so for five hens you could do them four times, every 4-6 months, storing the left-over powder in dry conditions. If you buy treated pellets the bag is unlikely to contain exactly the quantity you need and it won’t keep once opened, so some will be wasted.
If you treat your flock fairly soon after they arrive, you will deal with any worms they’ve brought with them from their previous home, which might have had quite a high worm count buildup, if chickens have been kept there for some time.
Most people just worm their birds 2 or 3 times a year, and combined with good run and coop hygiene, picking up poos etc, this keeps numbers down so the birds can cope with them. Some people, notably Rick on here, test their flock’s droppings before worming, to see if it’s necessary, or you can do worm tests by sending droppings away to a lab. But then you still have to use the Flubenvet if the results are positive. Rick is our expert on all things connected with worms so I hope he will fill you in some more.
Chickens all have some worms, but a heavy infestation will pull a bird down, and if she has any other health problem they will reduce her ability to overcome it or to lay well. In extreme cases the worms can cause anaemia and even death. So it’s worth finding out all you can about the life cycle of chicken worms,,so you know how best to break into it. This article is a good start, and as I said there are lots of posts on the forum about how to do it.
See https://poultrykeeper.com/general-chickens/worming-chickens/

 

[mattigil]

No, Vermex is sold as a digestive tonic which MAY help the chickens’ gut to resist worm infestation. It is not proven to be effective as a wormer and cannot claim to be. It may help improve the condition of a poorly bird but basically healthy birds don't need it. However, if it makes the owner feel better, that’s fine.
The only effective wormer licensed for poultry that doesn’t contaminate the eggs and is available without a vets prescription is Flubenvet. It’s available both as treated pellets and as a pot of powder which can be added to normal feed. Both ways require treatment for 7 days, to deal with worm eggs that hatch over a period of time in the hens’ gut. Unless you have a bigger flock, it’s easier to use the powder and mix it in with a measured amount of feed, either straight pellets for them to eat as normal, or in an appetising measured mix of small portions of nutritious treats such as sunflower seeds, mealworms and corn, with a few added pellets. A pot of powder contains 20 doses, so for five hens you could do them four times, every 4-6 months, storing the left-over powder in dry conditions. If you buy treated pellets the bag is unlikely to contain exactly the quantity you need and it won’t keep once opened, so some will be wasted.
If you treat your flock fairly soon after they arrive, you will deal with any worms they’ve brought with them from their previous home, which might have had quite a high worm count buildup, if chickens have been kept there for some time.
Most people just worm their birds 2 or 3 times a year, and combined with good run and coop hygiene, picking up poos etc, this keeps numbers down so the birds can cope with them. Some people, notably Rick on here, test their flock’s droppings before worming, to see if it’s necessary, or you can do worm tests by sending droppings away to a lab. But then you still have to use the Flubenvet if the results are positive. Rick is our expert on all things connected with worms so I hope he will fill you in some more.
Chickens all have some worms, but a heavy infestation will pull a bird down, and if she has any other health problem they will reduce her ability to overcome it or to lay well. In extreme cases the worms can cause anaemia and even death. So it’s worth finding out all you can about the life cycle of chicken worms,,so you know how best to break into it. This article is a good start, and as I said there are lots of posts on the forum about how to do it.
See https://poultrykeeper.com/general-chickens/worming-chickens/

Thank you so much! Will have a read and also get some of the powder ordered asap!