Looks like my dream may be over

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I've been in contact with my council with regards to whether I need planning permission for my coop/run etc and got a reply saying no. I also contacted the environmental health area of the council as to whether they had any problems with my keeping chickens. They also said no, as long as the area was keep clean to prevent a smell/rodents etc.

However, in my reply letter from the planning permission department I was advised to contact the Covenant consent area of our local housing authority (we own our home)

I did so, just out of courtesy, to say that I was planning on keeping chickens and I mentioned the amendment to the Allotments Act (1950) where it says anyone can keep chickens and rabbits and that could they confirm it.

I've received a reply today :
"With reference to your recent enquire (spellchecker?!) regarding the keeping of chickens in your garden, under the covenants attached to the sale of your property of which you should have a copy, unfortunately the covenant states you cannot keep any poultry or livestock other than a domestic animal not used for breeding purposes. If I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact"

So, that is a definitive NO. I don't know where I stand as I thought under the Allotments Act that I was DEFINITELY permitted to keep hens but I don't have the money to seek legal advice.

I'd like to point out that I hunted out the Conveyance which we were given when buying the house (between the council and the former owners) and there is NO mention of the restriction of keeping chickens and livestock mentioned. I don't know if this is the case with our own Conveyance as I don't think we ever recieved a copy. I did mention this in the reply I sent but as yet I haven't heard back.

If anyone has legal knowledge or can give me just general advice I'd be grateful

Thanks,

Donna. x
 
I would think a consultation with the solicitor who did your house purchase/holds documents would be first point of call . Ros
 
podstable said:
I would think a consultation with the solicitor who did your house purchase/holds documents would be first point of call . Ros
Click to expand...

Completely agree, hope you get the matter resolved.
 
Hi Donna,
according to this statement, 'other than a domestic animal not used for breeding purposes.'-you wouldn't be able to have a litter of puppies or kittens,it must be wrong.
Definitely get in touch with the solicitors who did your house purchase and therefore the conveyancing.You want to keep a few chickens as pets and for their eggs.
 
Hmm - I'd say that that covenant was added so that they didn't suddenly have a problem with a large scale breeding operation...

Livestock and Poultry and words used where farms / commercial operations are concerned.

There is a distinction between a small number of domestic chickens / ducks kept as pets and 'poultry' kept for eggs / meat / breeding on a farm for example.

"...you cannot keep any poultry or livestock other than a domestic animal not used for breeding purposes."

So I would say that's your get out clause - a few domestic hens (domestic = kept as pets, no cockerel or you might be breeding..) would fit this category.

If the council received complaints about noise / smell or vermin for example they might object but my guess is you won't have any problems if they were well cared for and didn't disturb anyone.
 
I'd be inclined to agree with the above posts also I think I'd pop and see your neighbours to see if they have a problem with you keeping chickens- promise of a few free eggs might be a good idea ;) - and if they aren't going to complain to anyone, and (as Tim says) you're keeping them as pets I'd imagine your local housing authority should have better things to worry about - what they don't know wont hurt them! :) Good luck!
 
Ditto what Tim said. The wording indicates for breeding. If you are only keeping a few chooks and no cock bird and don't have chicks I'd say it would be fine. Pets.

I have learnt to not ask the council about things like planning for hen houses or runs or sheds. You don't need it. So don't ask. Same with EH. Its really not something you need to worry about if you are having a shed or small hen house and run in the garden. Its no different to keeping a rabbit or aviary birds.

Alas I think you've probably caused a few more headaches asking these offices about this stuff than if you had not. The only thing you do need to check is if there is a covenant on the house but reading your one it doesn't sound like its a definate no. Probably if you had not even asked or checked it no one would have minded or bothered to investigate anyways and you'd be fine to keep them.

I'd still go ahead and aim to get chooks but now you've opened a bit of a can of worms I'd just take a bit of legal advice before going further.
 
If you don't have a copy of this covenant, you could call them and ask whether they would mind sending you a copy? Then, why not ask Citizens Advice - they should be able to decode the legal jargon in it and it shouldn't cost you a penny...
 
Well, I got onto the solicitors today that dealt with my house purchase and they're gonna call for the file to be brought up from archives and the lady I spoke to said she'll have a look and call me on Friday. Wish me luck.

I also got back onto the lady who told me I couldn't keep chooks :evil: and *very politely* pointed out her wording in the email and mentioned that chooks ARE domesticated animals and that I had NO intention of breeding from them, that I solely wanted them for pets (with the benefit of eggs! ;) )

I have every intention of not letting this go, even if it comes back included in the covenants (which I don't think it is) I'll head to my local land registry and try and get it removed if I have to. I will be in touch with the CAB if it shows up unfavourably to see what advice they can give. After all, the governement are pushing for people to be more self-sufficient, and are actively encouraging chicken-keeping.

I must say that I am surprised at how supportive my hubby has been about this (he has shown NO interest in having chickens before) but he knows how much it means to me and has even said "to do what you've gotta do"! Bless him!

Thank you for all your advice. It is being taken on board. I won't let it rest till I get my chooks!

Donna. x
 
I received a letter today from "the lady" and it goes as follows:

"Application for Covenant Consent - keep chickens, erect chicken coop and run.

I refer to your email dated 19 January 2010 sent at 15:33

The conveyance of 10 May 1994 contains a restrictive covenant that the property shall only be used as a private dwelling house. Whilst there is no specific reference in the conveyance to the keeping of poultry or livestock, Gentoo Sunderland Limited considers the keeping of such animals would possibly create a nuisance or annoyance to its tenants and owners of adjoining properties and therefore does not grant consent..."

She then went on to ask me to provide her with the evidence that I DON'T need planning permission for the coop and run (so I attached a scanned copy of the letter I received saying so as well as a response from Building Control saying I didn't need Building Regs consent)... see went by the book and where has it got me?!?

This letter totally contradicts what she said in an earlier email when she said, and I quote "the covenant states you cannot keep any poultry or livestock other than a domestic animal not used for breeding purposes. So... how come in the email the covenant states I can't keep poultry yet in the letter she says the coveyance doesn't make a specific reference to poultry?!?

This is the reply I sent her:
Dear Anne,

I received your correspondance dated 20th January 2010 today.

If my attachments have worked correctly, contained in this email should be:
1. A copy of the email received from Building Control dated 20 January 2010, stating that I do not need Building Regulations for my proposed coop and run
2. A scanned copy of the letter received from Development Control dated 12 January 2010, stating I do not need planning permission for my proposed chicken coop and run

I also contacted Environmental Health by telephone when first enquiring about my proposed coop and run (November 2009) and was told that as long as the coop and run were kept clean, they had no issue with the keeping of chickens.

As you will see from the letter received from Development Control I did as advised and contacted both Gentoo Sunderland and Building Control.

I apologise for when I mentioned bye-laws in my earlier email. What I had meant to say was, that I thought an Act Of Parliament (amendment to Allotments Act 1950) over-ruled any restrictive covenants. The information about the amendment can be found at: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/ ... 00031_en_1

As mentioned in my latter email, I said that I wanted to keep the chickens as pets. I feel this is no different from keeping rabbits/guinea pigs etc as I don't wish to have cockerels so there would be no concern with crowing in the early hours and chickens are domesticated animals.

Recently, the Government and media have been actively encouraging a more self-sufficient lifestyle (with regards to home produce eggs etc) and Urban Chicken-keeping is on the rise. I hope you will bear this in mind when making your decision.

I hope you will realise my genuine intention.

Thank you for your time

Donna Dunn

I have also wrote a letter which I've posted to all my neighbours telling them of my predicament and I have asked whether they have any issues with me keeping chickens. I have also included a standard response letter where they state in simple terms : I DO NOT oppose to Donna Dunn keeping chickens as pets / I DO oppose to Donna Dunn keeping chickens as pets then I have left an area where they can express themselves more clearly if they wish giving their reasons why they do/don't oppose. It also has a section for their name and address. I want to try and make it as formal as possible asI *hope* they answer favourably and I hope it gives me a bit leverage with Gentoo (housing)

I am waiting on a call back from Citizens Advice which I should get tomorrow. I left them a brief email with the main details so hope they can help. The solicitors should also ring me tomorrow too.

Apart from this I don't know what else I can do.

I hope I have come across and genuine and not a trouble-maker, what do you think?

Donna. x
 
It reads well. I can't believe you are having to go through all this now.

You are the only person I know who has contacted their council re planning permission and their EH officer. The most people do generally is check the covenant. Most don't even worry about that. Well done for being dilligent but I fear its making it a lot of work and possibly might not have the outcome you desire. I shall keep my fingers crossed for you though.
 
Donna you tried to do everything by the book and look where its got you :(
Good luck i hope you win this dispute
 
hi Donna,I can't believe the hassle you're being put through just to keep a few chickens as pets.I must admit,I didn't check anything,just popped around my neighbours to check that they didn't mind.I do hope that this is all resolved quickly in your favour.

Lydia
 
Me too, I'm sorry to hear the trouble you're having. :(

Keep your chin up, sounds like you're going about this the right way.
 
Hi Donna,

Just wanted to convey my sympathy to your situation. I admire your determination and honesty with the authorities. That in itself, in my book should earn you brownie points.
It's unfortunate for us poultry keepers that many local councils and simelar authorities do not understand about animals and about our good intentions. I bet none of them know which end of a chicken the egg comes out!! I expect many of your neighbours are probably pretty clueless about chickens too.
Many people would probably have just got chickens regardless of any bureaucracy. It really is a gamble as to 'do the right thing' or just go ahead and get your birds anyway.
I really hope this all turns out in your favour. With the hassle you've had and effort you've put in so far, your success would be well deserved.

All the best, Hippie Chick.
 
Best wishes with the authorities sounds like a nightmare. We just got our chickens and ducks without consulting anyone. Our neighbours are more than happy with a supply of fresh free range eggs being passed over the fence fairly regularly. ;)
 
So far I've had 7 replies back from neighbours...2 objections. One said that their bedroom looked out over our back garden and chickens make too much noise (they live 2 doors away and their house faces east, our garden is north).
The other neighbour who lives at number 2 (we're number 13 and the houses go up by 1) said that they have experience in keeping chickens and:
1. They make too much noise
2. They smell
3. That my garden is too small (its 10mx5m and they didn't even bother to ask HOW MANY chickens I was planning to keep so is 50m² not enough for 2 chickens now eh?) Their garden is tiny compared to mine (I know mines not that big) but I think they must think my garden is the same size as theirs
4. They said that because my garden was the size it was that the chickens couldn't be "free range" ?
5. That they attract rats and mice and that rats had already been spotted in the area (we live opposite woods so what do they expect? and if theres already rats whats the problem?!?) - its not like I'm gonna let the chickens live in a smelly pit, I plan on having gravel and wood chippings in the run which can (and would) be cleaned daily.

So dunno what to do. I could go ahead and get chooks and face the wrath of the housing company but I reckon my neighbours are the kind of busybodies who would be on the phone all the time to the Environmental Health etc etc complaining all the time about the slightest little thing. I really couldn't be chewed with that kind of hassle in my life.

I'm that sick I've told my hubby I want to move now, I've totally changed my perspective of where I live and who my neighbours are. I loved it before and now all I can do is think about wanting to buy a small plot of land (which we can't afford) with outline planning permission and sometime in the future build a small house. But it is just a dream - unless any of you have a small piece of land going spare I can buy where I could build a house - in about 20 years time!

Seriously fed up now. I can see my dream slipping away.

Donna. x
 
Hi Donna,
What a shame you're having all this trouble. I would have thought that as you've already approached EH & local authorities as long as they don't object to your chooks, you don't have to worry about the neighbours. Once you've got your 2 chooks the difficult neighbour will soon see that 2 don't cause any trouble.

Fingers crossed.
 
Truthfully, if I had been me, today, wanting to keep chickens in my back garden of my house in quiet cul de sac in middle of small town, I'd have not bothered contacting anyone, EH, council, neighbours. No one. I'd have just got them.

While I appreciate you contacted these people and organisations, as I said before, I fear you have opened a can of worms and have made the job harder for yourself by doing so.

A small hen house and run don't require planning permission of any kind that I am aware of. Otherwise local councils would be swamped with applications due to the huge growth in back garden poultry keeping. It just doesn't happen. You could keep chooks in a converted rabbit hutch and run also. People who keep rabbits don't apply for permission for the housing and chicken housing isn't a permanent dwelling etc so there really is no need. With regard to EH, they only really care about anything if someone reports a problem. As it is, even then there is not much they can do unless they can trace the problem directly to your garden/house and you are not taking measures to prevent it. For minor things, like a single rat sighting, they really don't take much notice. I had the local EH call round last week because my next door neighbours reported seeing a rat, singluar, in their back garden. He asked to take a look round my garden (I did not have to oblige btw, no legal obligation) so I let him. He saw no sign of rats in our garden. No rat runs, droppings, nothing. And he agreed with me, being called out for 1 rat was a bit excessive but he had to check it out. He wasn't worried and neither was I. End of problem.

With regard to your neighbours, I'd probably have not contacted them at all. Its not their business or concern. So long as you keep your birds clean and cared for, why should they care. Regards the noise, a couple of ex batts or some such are going to be quiet. TBH I never really heard my ex batts make much noise at all. My purebreds were always the ones to make a din. And even then, with 3 hens all clucking, none of my neighbours here have complained about them. Also be aware that even if a neighbour complained about the noise, it would require a lot of effort on their part to take it further. They would need to get on to the local council, record the noise, levels etc. A couple of hens are hardly going to rate on the noise decibel radar and be any kind of problem. I've known of a few cases where people have a cock bird and neighbours have complained but even that was a long winded process and they can't make you get rid of a couple of hens based on a bit of clucking on and off. Its not keeping people awake in the night or any worse than a dog barking or music playing. By asking your neighbours I fear you may have again made things a bit more difficult. They now know and will be on the alert for things and those that are not keen may be even quicker to try to complain.

I still don't see any legal reason for you not keeping a couple of ex batts or whatever it was you wanted. You own your house from what I can work out. Is it a recent build on a new estate of some sort? Is that why you are worried about the covenant? That they may have applied one to all the houses built? If its older I seriously doubt there is one. If its a new build then there may be one, but the wording you have quoted is ambiguous and I feel keeping a couple as pets is not different from a dog in the garden, rabbits or aviary birds.

Really, my advice would be to go ahead and get them and deal with any consequences after or forget the idea. But if you go ahead and get them, stop asking people if they mind as you just give more opportunity to having obstacles put in your way. Find a breed that are known for being quiet. I always found Polands (only kept bantam ones) and Dutch bantams to be quiet chooks. Ex batts also but they are bigger.
 
Well, I've taken all your advice on board and I'm not gonna contact anyone anymore other than if I get given the green light I will be writing to the neighbours who objected to say that I take their concerns on board and I will strive to prevent rats etc but I'm gonna get the chickens anyway!

Like I said to my hubby earlier, why should I make myself unhappy to make my neighbours happy? I guess I just always try to be the peacemaker. NO MORE! lol

By the way, I'm looking to get hybrid chooks (bluebelles, columbian blacktails, speckeldys etc)

Donna. x
 
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