From Bad to Worse - Scaly Leg Problems

cuwiar

cuwiar

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Hello all, it's been a while since I posted and it's quite a long query so I hope you're all sitting comfortably?

Some of you may remember my post about a school project that was getting out of hand?

The situation needs further intervention and I was looking for some advice.

Currently the chickens live in an enclosed quad between four buildings which is well protected, grass and concrete areas, a few trees and bushes etc. Generally a good environment.

The original chickens I mentioned in the post were re-homed but since then more eggs hatched and currently there is a cockerel, four laying hens and several chicks. There are about 6/8 chicks who are around 9-10 weeks old and one very small chick, still fluffy and yellow. All other eggs are being removed (I hope!)

We recently removed two additional hens. Unfortunately, one of them was mum to two of the older chicks but all seems ok, the chicks are integrated into the flock and mum isn't fretting. We tried not to remove one of the mums until they had pushed their chicks away naturally but telling them apart and catching them was a nightmare and took five stressful attempts.

The reason we took two is to reduce the numbers, give them a new home with better management and to replace some of ours who had been taken by a fox (but that's another story). We plan to get another two in a couple of weeks once the first two have integrated with our one remaining girl (who escaped the fox). We didn't want to get four at once as it would overwhelm our single girl.

The two we have taken home have scaly leg mites which we are treating them for with leg spray, they are isolated from the original girl and I'll use Barrier Scaly Leg Mite spray on her as a precaution too.

The query relates now to how best to cope with the remaining flock at the school as they all need to be treated for leg mites somehow. They are very freaked out by strange people and they all live in a huge pampas grass so even catching them at roost is problematic and stressful. Repeated catching is not practical so we need a one hit wonder. What do you recommend? I was thinking Ivermectin? But does anyone know what would be best for the chicks? Also, any advice and tips on using Ivermectin/other similar treatments. I was wondering about drops/weight ratio? I'm nervous about catching the cockerel too, although he seems a bit of a wimp as he laid low while we were catching the two we took home!

Also, I need to figure out what would be best to treat their environment. The pampas grass will be cut down as that will also help stop them hiding their eggs but I imagine there will be mites in there, maybe in the stump. They have a proper hen house to use instead which will be thoroughly cleaned. Do we need to treat the grassy areas and concrete areas and what should we use? How long could the mites live in the environment away from the birds? It is possible that the area could be sectioned off so that they can only access half of it while the other half is being treated so maybe that is the way to go? Is there a solution/powder best to use in the environment?

Ideally I want to remove most of the grown up chicks and rehome them but would anyone take unsexed (although signs are there that there is a cockerel) chicks with scaly leg mite? Maybe someone wanting to start a whole new flock who was willing to treat them/continue treatment? Unlikely.

Then I think they should rehome the cockerel leaving two hens and maybe two female chicks. And then hopefully the problem will get under control. Again, he has scaly leg mite though (I assume) so he's doubly undesirable!

It seems though that they have been providing chick crumb, how they know who's eating what though, I've no idea!

I'm half talking myself around to what needs to be done here but any advice from experience from you guys would be much appreciated!

Just as a light relief I've attached pics of the two we have taken home. They are very pretty but their poor legs are swollen and rough around the foot joint. I think it's still early enough for treatment to be swift and effective but it's such a shame for them.

We've named them Puzel and Ariel (courtesy of my three year old niece)

IMG_1833(1).jpg

IMG_1834(1).jpg

IMG_1835(1).jpg
 
To start with disinfecting the area, I would use either Stalosan F or Nettex Ground Sanitising Powder, I use Stalosan, don't know how big the area is but dosage is 50g/m2 you can get it in 2kg to 20kg quantities, it kills most parasitic eggs so is worth using even if scaly leg mites aren't present in the environment. You don't mention whether they have a house or not, if so use something like viratec to disinfect and then paint on a diatom slurry. As far as I am aware invermectin needs to have a repeat dose given as it doesn't kill the eggs and as there is no stated withdrawal period the eggs and meat should never be used for human consumption going forward, can't help you with dosage I'm afraid I would seek the advice of a vet and personally wouldn't use it on the chicks best bet for them is dipping legs into surgical spirit once a week and then smearing legs with vaseline to suffocate the mites. Catching needn't be a problem and will be a lot easier if you borrow yourself some netting or hurdles covered with mesh and corral them into a smaller area, catching the cockerel is no different to the hens so don't worry about him. You won't likely find any takers for the cockerel so really ought to kill him and break the cycle of breeding that has led to this situation. Personally I would put in an anonymous call to the LEA or RSPCA as it sounds like pretty irresponsible behaviour that has led to this situation and the person responsible needs to be stopped from repeating it for a 3rd year in a row. On the plus side it looks like you have got yourself a nice couple of hens to keep your survivor company.
 
Thanks Dinosaw,

They do have a house but favour the pampas grass. Once that is cut down hopefully they will use the house which I will make sure is thoroughly cleaned before they go back in there.

If Ivermectin needs repeat treatments then do you think using the spray would be better. It is less likely to be harmful to the bird? I was just leaning to Ivermectin to reduce handling/stress.

I have been reading through other posts on her about SLM and just want to double check it is what I think it is. I will try and get some pics of their feet but basically around the foot joint, where it meets the leg is paler, and lumpy and the scales are raised. Nowhere else on the legs has the raised scales. I'm convinced it's SLM but don't want to cause a big fuss if it's not and then upset the rest of the flock!

I've also told the school that the hens need to be wormed. Does anyone have advise on worming the chicks? Should we try and separate them out from the flock and treat them separately, with a different dosage?

The school are putting together an action plan to tackle the problem. I'm just trying to advise on treatments etc.

After treating the environment do the chickens need to be kept out of the area for any given time?
 
Sounds like scaly leg to me but if you are unsure do a google image search and compare. Worming is best done using flubenvet, I would wait until the chicks are 18-20 weeks to worm, if it is practical to separate them and worm separately then do so, otherwise I would hang on. Personally I would rather use the spray than invermectin on them, they will need periodic handling anyway if you are to properly look after their welfare. The chickens only need to be kept out of the area while you are shaking the powder out as the dust tends to get everywhere, a quick tip, use a dry watering can to shake it out, you get much less waste than broadcasting by hand.
 
Hi Cuwiar, good to hear from you. And good advice from Dinosaw, I would think. The trouble with treating scaley mite is that, even if you kill the first lot of mites, there will inevitably be more eggs hidden under the raised scales, so really they need a weekly spray treatment plus Vaseline to soothe the legs and smother mites. You need to do this for at least a couple of months. Then you have the problem of wondering if, or when, they are clear of mites because the raised scales don't go back down flat, you have to wait until they moult them out, probably next autumn now. So ivermectin or frontline would seem to be an option for the school birds to relieve the pain and itching from the mites, bearing in mind the egg withdrawal problem, but spraying and Vaseline as well would still be a good idea. You could beat it on the two you've rehomed by just using repeated spray and Vaseline. Personally I wouldn't use surgical spirit on any birds. let alone chicks, as its intensely painful on an open wound, as you will know if you've ever got any in a cut or graze. There are several good sprays available which won't hurt them, and thus also make them even less inclined to be caught. Presumably your two will become easier to catch once they've settled in and realise that it's worth running to you when the corn tin is shaken!
I would definitely push for the cockerel to be culled and agree rehoming isn't a worthwhile option and breeding must stop. Personally I would cull the chicks as well as they will be difficult to treat, as you say, and nobody is likely to be able to take them on, being badly bred, infected, and probably fed the wrong stuff for optimum growth to adults. Then think hard about the other four. If you could rehome them to someone responsible, with facilities for isolating them, and willingness to treat them over a period, and will take the risk of having infested birds in their flock, then fine. Otherwise I think they should be culled as well and the project should come to an end. It doesn't sound as if it's giving the children any interest or pleasure, and will not be greatly missed, since the hens are so hard to catch and this shows they're not handled or cared for by children. Maybe this was a project undertaken with good intentions by inexperienced teachers who didn't realise what they were taking on. As an ex-teacher myself I know it must be nearly impossible for staff to find time in the day to do more than throw food at the hens and with luck fill the drinkers. No educational value at all, in fact the reverse. And what about the school holidays, and the problems of winter weather?
What exactly is your role in all this? It sounds as if you are a sort of chicken consultant, and if you could take on the responsibility of composing a paper about what needs to be done, with costs, then when it was all down on paper the head might realise exactly what are the problems. I would include costs of disinfecting the run and coop, (any redmite in there as well yet? Is this why they prefer the pampas grass to the coop?) plus treatment with recommended products, and also the price of a vets visit for consultation about what best to do and prescriptions for treatment. It will cost quite a bit for all this, and in these times of shrinking school budgets this may precipitate closing it all down. Explain the practical problems of catching and treating them, and say that this is as the result of insufficient time and attention being paid to them. Say that volunteers will be needed to help catch and treat them every week and ask if the staff are up to this, so near to the end of a very busy term, and in the holidays. Also, spell out a regime which must be adhered to in the future, re breeding control, proper feeding, worming, and parasite prevention, also regular and through cleaning of coop and premises.
You could include the alternatives of rehoming or culling in the paper, explain rehoming problems to non-Chicken keepers, and get a price for the vet to put down any surplus birds if you haven't got anyone who will cull them for you. If the head disagrees with the idea of a vets consultation visit and subsequent bill for advice and prescriptions, you could say that it would be unfortunate for the school's reputation for the RSPCA to be called in for advice, but that you were prepared to do that if the situation isn't properly dealt with, one way or another.
Maybe the situation could be contained until the end of term, which would give time for all this to be decided, and then they could all 'disappear' in the holidays, which it think would be a relief to all concerned, especially you!
 
And also I don't think mites could be exterminated from a big clump of pampas grass even cut down. The only way to deal with this would be by burning the cut-down stumps. I can't understand why anyone would plant pampas in an area intended for children, as you know it's very dangerous stuff that can cause serious injuries. Was this another horticultural project that went wrong? I can see why it's so difficult to catch the chickens, if they hide in there!
 
Hello again, and thank you for your replies.

I think the plan going forward is to arrange for the cockerel to be culled and to begin treating the adults, the chicks and the environment.

Any chicks that turn out to be cockerels will be rehomed after treatment or culled if suitable homes can't be found. At this stage it seems harsh to cull all birds as apart from the SLM they are healthy and the hens are laying well. We will personally rehome two more which will leave the school with a manageable sized flock of all female hens. The school will arrange a more structured schedule for ongoing health maintenance, currently the cleaners have (gladly) taken on responsibility for cleaning, feeding and watering but additional health needs such as regular worming and mite treatments will also be addressed. The intention then is to let the project come to an end naturally.

An additional coop has been sourced with the intention to separate out the chicks until they are old enough to share the same food as the adults.

I am putting together a list of all treatments needed based on my experience and some of the advice I have gained from here and associated costs. Eradicating the SLM from the environment will be challenging but I think it is worth a shot.
 
That all sounds great. Well done for helping towards such a sensible plan, and especially for rehoming four of the hens. I would get these to your place ASAP so the scaley mite don't get any worse and you can start treating them alongside the others, as you only have one single hen, I think you could integrate all 5 when possible, and perhaps give your own hen the same treatment as the newbies, to make sure she stays mite free. The longer she is separated from the other four, the harder integration will be. I
Is the school coop made of wood? If so, and it's got redmite, how will you treat it? Would it be good to include Red Stop on your shopping list, to put in their water. Organic and harmless product that makes their blood taste nasty to mites, so they can't feed and eventually die out. Most effective as a preventative for uninfested chickens in a clean coop, but it's good stuff. They only need a very few drops in their drinker, it's quite economical.
Also make sure the head does understand that there must not be any more chicks hatched in a classroom. This can be a brilliant project in the hands of an experienced person who can take the chicks on from there, but if any more get hatched from bought-in fertile eggs after the cockerel has gone, the whole cycle will start up again.
What is the plan for 'letting the project come to an end naturally'? Presumably thus means until the last two die. What about when one dies and only one is left?
 
Thanks Marigold, if it comes to one hen being left on her own then we will have to find a suitable home for her, maybe by then we will have space for one or two more and we could take on the remainders?

I haven't heard of Red Stop but like the sound of it and think I'll add it to my own shopping list for precaution!

The current house is wooden but I'm not sure about the new one. I've added Poultry Shield and Diatom to the school's list for red mite control (if it is there) and made it clear how careful they will have to be bringing in a new house, particularly if it is second hand. There is also Viratec and Stalosan F on their list for house and ground disinfection.

In terms of our own flock, I plan to continue to treat the two new ones for a few more weeks before introducing them to our old girl. Although, she is getting a spray now and again too. They can all see each other and generally hang out together through the wire, with a bit of posturing if food is around. As I am assuming the section of the run the new girls are in is now contaminated with SLM until I can treat that too, once the two 'news' and one old are all in together I will exclude them from there until the new-new ones have been in, treated and integrated. Complicated! Then I'll treat the ground in both sections (as a precaution) and they can all have access to the full run. I really hope the mites don't spread, I've never realised just how nice and smooth and shiny our girls legs were before! That sounds a bit weird! :)

In the meantime the new-new girls (which ever they might be) will be starting their treatment at the school.

I've told the school to separate out the chicks from the adults (except the tiny one who will stay with it's mum and be provided with chick crumb) and give them growers pellets for the next eight weeks until they can be integrated (minus males) and all be fed on layers pellets and be wormed together.

My role in this now is to try and give the SLM treatments every five days for the next few weeks! I'm not much looking forward to that but once they are encouraged into houses rather than grass and are separated into adults and chicks it will be easier.
 
Here's the link to an explanation if how Red Stop works

http://chickens-for-sale.com/new-herbal-poultry-red-mite-control/
And I would use Smite spray fir the coop, as it can penetrate the deep cracks well, also less chance if breathing it than powder products. Here's a link


http://www.pestcontrolsupplies.co.uk/smite-rtu-professional-biocidal-disinfectant-mite-killer-750ml
But Smite also do a redmite powder which is likely to be more effective than just DE. If you go back one page when you've loaded the link you'll find details if the range.
 
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