Feed

[Trappapapa]

Apologies if this topic has already been covered......I run my cockerel with my hens and they all get the same feed...layers pellets. I recently read something claiming that layers feed wasn't good for cockerels as the calcium level was too high. I have had no problems with my cockerel so far but I just wanted to know if I should be changing the feed or not.

 

[Marigold]

Well, the hens definitely need the calcium in the layers pellets, don’t they, and as there’s no way you can feed the cockerel separately I suppose he’ll just have to put up with it!
I’ve never kept a cockerel so I’d be interested to hear other opinions.

 

[Hen-Gen]

I’ve been breeding chickens for 30 years and the cockerels have always had layers pellets. No problems with health, fertility or longevity. I wouldn’t worry.

 

[MrsBiscuit]

Ditto, keep feeding the layers, its the only realistic option in any case.

 

[chrismahon]

There was a post on another site last year claiming that their vet had said giving layers to a cockerel was potentially very bad for their health. I seem to remember that it was given as the cause of the death of their cockerel. The person who posted never replied to the answers and so that was their first and only post- I concluded it was scaremongering.

In theory it could be bad for kidneys or liver but we've had cockerels on layers all their life and they have lived to a well above average age. The general lifespan is 2-5 years and we've had them to over 8. As said, if you have a cockerel with hens as they should be, feeding them rearers separately is impossible.

As an additional note though, when we have flocks stop laying we are now switching them over to rearers which has 1% Calcium as opposed to 4%, but which most importantly also has more protein and in this French feed there are added probiotics. Seems they prefer it and in some cases their digestion has improved, so we think worth the extra cost. They are all quite old now, but if they start laying again next year they will be switched back to layers.

 

[Marigold]

I’ve read that it’s good to give growers pellets to pullets up to about 20 weeks because too much calcium and a higher protein content in layers pellets could adversely affect their kidney development. This is OK where chicks and growers are being raised separately, but in a more traditional setup where chicks have been hatched naturally and then live with their mum, a similar issue arises, about what the chicks and young growers should be offered. Not very common nowadays, and of course, like cockerels, they all eat the communal rations.

 

[Hen-Gen]

Yes, for me the key ages are 6 weeks and 16 weeks.
0-6 weeks on chick crumbs
6-16 weeks on growers pellets
16+ weeks on layers pellets

Mostly I only hatch once per year in incubators so all my chicks/growers are the same age.

 

[Trappapapa]

Many thanks all for your comments!

 

[Shadrach]

Rather late to this one but I hope the OP returns to the thread and others take note.
I come across this particular feed question over and over. I also come across the typical answer over and over.
The correct answer is no, layers feed is not suitable for rooster. It gets even more complicated. Layers feed is not suitable for pullets, or cockerels, or elderly non laying and end of laying cycle hens.
It's really easy. It's called Layers Feed because it's for laying hens. You know, it's one of those, it does what it says on the tin type problems. If the chicken doesn't lay eggs then it's not a massive stretch to realise that perhaps layers feed isn't the right feed.
I know lots of people will say you can give all chickens layers feed. Unfortunately people get terribly confused between what they can do, and what they should do.
You will always get those who will tell you they've fed layers feed to a mixed flock for years without any problems. The first question I would want the answer to is just how old are your roosters and senior hens.
The next is, after the last death of one of your roosters or elderly hens, what did the necropsy show they died of.

Layers feed and chicken feed in general has been driven by the egg and meat industry. The feeds are formulated to be cheap and sufficient to support life for two to three years while giving nutrients for maximum egg production. Note the is nothing in this description about long term health. This is because not many egg and meat industry chickens are expected to live much past two years old. Generally they are killed as soon as they get past their maximum egg production years.
A further consideration is chickens are not Vegans, or even Vegetarians come to that. Chickens are omnivorous and like most other omnivores, for maximum health they need a balanced and varied diet which contains the correct nutrients in the correct amounts.
Nature is funny in this way in that it has evolved to enable chickens to make diet choices; I know it's incredible, but they do seem to have a better idea of what they need to eat to be healthy than their keepers in many cases.
Am I being a bit sarcastic? Yes, I am a bit.
A lot of rather expensive research has gone into chicken feed over the years by people who one hopes know a lot about the subject.
If they write Layers Feed on the packet then I think they might just know what they are talking about. This of course doesn't stop people from giving the wrong feed to their chickens, but the manufacturers are in the clear because it says "Layers Feed" on the packet.
If it says Flock Raiser or Chick Feed, or Game Feed or Broilers Medicated Feed then It's reasonably safe to assume that these descriptions are correct for the type of flock or chicken they state on the packet.

Back to the rooster.
Roosters are different from hens in more things than are immediately obvious. One of these not so obvious things (there are quite a few others) is how much calcium they can utilise. Roosters do not have exactly the same bone structure as hens. The hens has calcium storage capabilities in her legs that the rooster doesn't have. The hens stores excess calcium in her legs and draws on it when feed is lacking in calcium so she can still shell her eggs. Eventually, if this calcium is not replenished, hens will suffer from osteoporosis. It's quite common in badly kept high production flocks.
If you feed a rooster the same amount of calcium you feed a high production hen then he has to process this calcium. This is done in his liver. Even the most healthy livers have problems processing high levels of calcium and what happens over time is the calcium builds up in the roosters liver, making it non functioning. This process may take some years until there comes a point that the liver stops working and the rooster falls over dead. Many will assume the poor rooster has had a heart attack but a necropsy will show that in fact he died of liver failure due to too much calcium.

 

[Marigold]

That’s very interesting, Shadrach, thank you. But I don’t think it actually gives advice on the central question - if you have a mixed flock, ranging together, including roosters, growers, hens in lay and older hens, what is it good to actually feed them in order for the hens to get enough calcium and be reasonably productive in relation to their genetic predisposition to lay freely, and the growers and cockerels to avoid liver and kidney damage?
And if a keeper has just one rooster and a few hens, is it reasonable to feed a formula that is aimed at keeping him going into old age, where he will be less potent, at the expense of the hens and their needs for higher calcium?

 

[Shadrach]

That’s very interesting, Shadrach, thank you. But I don’t think it actually gives advice on the central question - if you have a mixed flock, ranging together, including roosters, growers, hens in lay and older hens, what is it good to actually feed them in order for the hens to get enough calcium and be reasonably productive in relation to their genetic predisposition to lay freely, and the growers and cockerels to avoid liver and kidney damage?
And if a keeper has just one rooster and a few hens, is it reasonable to feed a formula that is aimed at keeping him going into old age, where he will be less potent, at the expense of the hens and their needs for higher calcium?

Given the OP is aware of one of the published problems with Layers Feed for roosters I had assumed that they may also be aware of the other types of feed availible. They didn't ask what type of feed would be more appropriate so I've assumed they've done a bit of research and know the answer.
However, an All Flock type feed is best for a mixed flock. I would be looking for a feed that supplied 18% protein, preferably containing some fish meal, and a Calcium content of between 0.9% and 1.5%. Fat should be less than 3%.
I feed something similar to the tribes here, who range from ten years old down to some months old. I have six males at the moment.
The eldest hen at twelve years old died earlier this year.
I leave calcium carbonate in a bowl close to the feed stations. The hens take it as needed. It's no trouble and last for ages.

And if a keeper has just one rooster and a few hens, is it reasonable to feed a formula that is aimed at keeping him going into old age, where he will be less potent, at the expense of the hens and their needs for higher calcium?

You weren't thinking of applying for a job with Age Concern, or a similar body were you? :lol:

 

[Marigold]

Perhaps even more important than nursing cockerels into old age is knowing what is in whatever you do choose to feed your flock, and where the ingredients have come from. We all keep our flocks largely so we can know that our food is healthy and better than commercially produced eggs and meat, so there’s no point in buying cheap soya-based feed that negates that and destroys the ecosystem as well. See https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/25/revealed-uk-supermarket-and-fast-food-chicken-linked-to-brazil-deforestation-soy-soya

 

[Shadrach]

Perhaps even more important than nursing cockerels into old age is knowing what is in whatever you do choose to feed your flock, and where the ingredients have come from. We all keep our flocks largely so we can know that our food is healthy and better than commercially produced eggs and meat, so there’s no point in buying cheap soya-based feed that negates that and destroys the ecosystem as well. See https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/25/revealed-uk-supermarket-and-fast-food-chicken-linked-to-brazil-deforestation-soy-soya

Well, we don't all keep chickens for the reasons you give.
I keep the chickens here because I like chickens and so I can study their behaviour.
Quite a few people I know of keep chickens as pets. They're not overly concerned about getting eggs and wouldn't dream of eating any of them.
Then there are people who just have house roosters.
The people I'm in contact with most keep chickens in an attempt to save a number of land race breeds. They don't eat the eggs or the chickens.

However, I agree with avoiding the destruction of the eco system. Whether the production of cheap soy based feeds is a major contributor to that destruction is debatable given all the other factors. I might be tempted to burn down a few McDonalds as a first step.

 

[rick]

I agree that supplying a hen regulated calcium top up is very easy and they would easily regulate it themselves if the feed was a bit low in calcium for the layers. I must admit, I rely a little too much (possibly, maybe) on scratch, cabbage and the odd tomato etc for run entertainment because mine dont have a big enough and wild enough range to keep them occupied with foraging otherwise, They have layers pellets available all of the time but it is interesting that the mixed grit always ends up as just a pile of grit after the hens have picked through it for the oyster shell bits. Our chap, I think, has enough of a dilution available to not have to eat only layers - and he's very small so doesn't eat a lot anyway.

 

[Shadrach]

I agree that supplying a hen regulated calcium top up is very easy and they would easily regulate it themselves if the feed was a bit low in calcium for the layers. I must admit, I rely a little too much (possibly, maybe) on scratch, cabbage and the odd tomato etc for run entertainment because mine dont have a big enough and wild enough range to keep them occupied with foraging otherwise, They have layers pellets available all of the time but it is interesting that the mixed grit always ends up as just a pile of grit after the hens have picked through it for the oyster shell bits. Our chap, I think, has enough of a dilution available to not have to eat only layers - and he's very small so doesn't eat a lot anyway.

I fed layers feed here when I first got here. I couldn't find anything else localy. I had a couple of roosters get ill very quickly and die.
The vet here cut the first one open. I didn't know much about necropsy then. It was liver failure that killed him. I did the next. I'm not very good at it but his liver looked much like the one before.
I feed an organic all flock type feed now. It's more expensive, but not by much and have a couple of bowls of calcium near the feed stations. Egg shells are still good apart from the pensioners which is to be expected.

 

[rick]

Does your all flock feed give a value for calcium content Sandrach? It would be interesting to know.
I dont think I've seen it at my local supplier but haven't particularly looked.

 

[Shadrach]

Does your all flock feed give a value for calcium content Sandrach? It would be interesting to know.
I dont think I've seen it at my local supplier but haven't particularly looked.

It does.
This is what is on the bags of feed and further details are on the suppliers website.

View attachment 2

 

[rick]

3.5% calcium in the layers feed. They will be tucking into to supplement then but they will know how much they need. Cheers, that's very interesting.

 

[chrismahon]

I think our layers pellets are 4% Calcium and growers/ rearers 1%, which are sold here for meat birds under the label of 'growth' or 'flesh'. I have no doubt that too much Calcium can overstretch the liver of the cock, as it has been reported on forums several times. We have had two deaths with symptoms that may suggest that liver failure was the cause, both TNN's which may be predisposed to it? Of course the same can be said for hens no longer laying and we have many of those. Shadrach seems to have found a system to overcome the issue.

By co-incidence we recently switched all our non-laying flocks to rearers pellets. The reason was not fundamentally to do with Calcium levels though, although that added weight to the decision. The rearers sold here includes probiotics and with several moulting and Winter on the way we thought it would help to get their digestive systems in best order. The difference has been astounding- they are all eating far more and seem to have been 're-energised'. Perhaps it will help our last remaining cock, although his main problem is one of mobility- he's a big chap and leaping out of the coop in the morning instead of using the new steps isn't helping.

Pellets here in France are quite new. Previously people used to scatter feed mixed grain and give oyster shell grit for the calcium and gizzard and judging by what's on the shelves many still do. You can't buy UK style mixed grit anywhere here at the moment. Our new pullets had terrible digestion when they arrived, which was resolved very quickly by adding mixed grit to their feed.