Am I doing something wrong!?!

[Lucylou]

Experienced opinion please.

Got my first chicken family of 5 about a year ago.3 hens & 2 bantums, of indeterminate age.They settled well into the new run & coup.
Within about a few weeks we had the first casualty, she developed respitory problems & died In our naievety we weren't too worried because she was probably elderly (but still laying) & thought she probably came with the problem.
Then the bantum got some sort of infection which was treated with antibiotics from the vet & recovered but sadly the fox came by one night......

We then added 2 more 18 week olds bought from a reputable source. But we didn't have them long enough to develop any problems because a few weeks later Mr Fox returned & took them all.

So a few weeks ago (after a gap of about 2 months) we started again with a new group of 7.
4 came from a small 'smallholder' from her own fertilised eggs (hatched May) & 3 came from a lady who bought fertilised eggs from 'Buy a chicken' & hatched them (June).

All was going well until one of the younger ones (a maran) developed a virus infection. She's on anti-biotics but very poorly. The vet tested her poo for cocc.... (can't remember???) but didn't find any eggs so confirmed a virus of some sort.

So this is my question, all you experienced bods might be able to shed some light on this. Is this about average, 3 out of 5 (7) with serious ailments? None of the people I know who keep chooks have this problem, one friend looks after the chicks for the local school & hardly gives them more than food water & the odd TLC & there's never a problem.

Am I doing something wrong or is it just co-incidence?

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Lucylou,

I'm less experienced than you,but,if your hen house has enough ventilation,and you are not using bedding that is dusty, it is probably just a horrid co-incidence.Think the vet prob checked your chook for coccidosis (I've spelt that wrong I think.....)good that it hasn't got that,but,not a lot of help when she is still very ill.
I hope she starts to improve soon,and I'm sure more experienced ppl will read you post and have suggestions to make.
BTW,what bedding do you use? Is it from a reputable source?Do you live in a rural area,or a town?
If they get respiratory problems at the same time of year or season,is it maybe a chemical from either crop spraying,or a neighbour using a product that maybe blows over to where your chooks are?

 

[snifter]

Its probably bad luck. It seems you lose more to foxes than you do to illness I'd be looking to make everything more secure if you keep losing your stock to a persistent fox. All you are doing is restocking foxes food supply if you've not been able to work out how they are getting in or prevent it. I'd always solve the fox problem before restocking, otherwise chances are you'll lose the new stock also.

As for illness, I'd look at the ground they are on (if on it constantly then they end up pecking back up their own droppings if you think about it), the bedding and your general all round care. Do you worm them, use ACV in the water, feed a balanced diet, fresh water and so on? What about the housing? have you checked to see if their poos are 'normal' and not a strange colour. Often the colour of droppings can be an indication of something not right and needing possible attention.

TBH its often luck of the draw. I find my stock tends to be overall vey healthy but with the odd problem. I do a number of things to ensure I am keeping the ground fresh so as to prevent any problems there. I rotate them around on fresh ground, allow to free range and include grit in their diet also.

I'd also suggest having a read up on the common illnesses and ailments that can affect chooks. Coccidiosis usually would affect more in a flock and can be treated with Coxoid iirc which can be bought in most pet stores. If you strongly suspect that is what is afflicting your stock I'd save the vet bills and go for a £5 bottle of that. If its only one bird then I'd think it was unlikely however. Some things you can treat at home or help ease the problem.

Vets often can't figure out what is wrong with a chook. Very few seem to have any real knowledge of poultry to be able to offer more than a list of possibles and often those less knowledgeable seem to bark up the wrong tree and end up costing the owner lots of money. Decent poultry vets are few and far between in my experience.

 

[Tim]

Ditto to the above.

But I would add Mycoplasma infection (that leads to Respiratory Diseases like CRD Chronic Respiratory Disease) is carried by a chicken for life. Once you have it, unless you cull and start again, you've got it. Birds that don't show symptoms will be carriers too. Some birds get sick and recover, some are fine and some get sick and die.

My losses (I had nearly 200 birds a year and a half ago with chicks) have fallen dramatically since I have moved them from runs to individual areas in a field. I now firmly believe that a little bit of free range can help them a lot.

As for Vets - Most aren't too good with Chickens, yes. There are a few that are very good. Take a look at the [urlhttp://poultrykeeper.com/poultry-vets-uk/poultry-veterinary-practices-services-uk/]Poultry Vets UK[/url] list on poultrykeeper.com.

For example I received an email this morning from a vet in the Minster Vets group after asking about prices for testing they could do through the post:

".....The cost of a Worm egg count (worm eggs and coccidia) in a faeces sample is £12.26 (this is including VAT). We perform them in our lab on a daily basis for commercial, , small private producers and small backyard flocks.

Other test that may be of interest is Salmonella detection in cloacal swabs £14.50 (incl. VAT). This price is for a batch of cloacal swabs tested together so that you know if your flock is positive or negative to salmonella.

Water test for TVC's (Total viable counts, or total level of bacteria in the water) is £5.75 (incl. VAT) for each sample. This tell you if the water that the birds are drinking is of good (microbial) quality or not.

All the prices include the report posted or emailed to the client. The client needs to register with us (which is free) before we perform any tests. You can register by ringing to any of our branches and giving the name, address, post code and telephone number to the receptionist...."

I then asked about PM costs....

"A post mortem of up to 6 birds cost £49.78 (incl. VAT) and bacteriology £13.54 (incl VAT). Normally they go together unless the cause of mortality is very obvious at Post mortem and there is not need of bacteriology.

The dead bird needs to be fresh. We encourage people to stay with us whilst we do the Post mortem (they can see it if they wish). Some clients that are far away send birds by post or courier. If this is the case, it has to be special delivery, next day and it has to be packed properly to avoid leaks. The submission form needs to be fully completed with history of the flock and contact details of the owner"

If you look at their web site, they do have a long list of tests they can do in their poultry lab - but some of course may be prohibitively expensive for us..

Tim

 

[Lucylou]

Thanks so much for your advice.

Snifter, I have now secured the run as best as possible, hence the gap before getting the new ones! It is now completely covered so apart from giving the chooks unarmed combat lessons I don't think I can do much more I'm monitoring it closely & do a daily perimeter check.

What is the best way of keeping the ground fresh? I rake it & move things around. Its quite a large area for the number of chooks (20' x 12' approx) At the begining it was covered in bark chippings but they've all disintergrated, so having read on this site about hardwood chips, have been looking where to buy them but so far can't find them anywhere. I've also seen small rubber chips for sale on a poultry website, do you know anything about these? Also should I dig the ground over now & again, would that help?
When I've clipped their wings I might be able to let them free range a bit at the weekends but am so afraid of the fox that don't want to take risks.
I bought some ACV today from the local equine centre so they'll have it from tomorrow. (hope it's the right kind, it says on the container 'human grade' but the girl there said it probably only means its high quality)

Questions, Questions,!!! Apologies!

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Lucylou,
with regards the fox, IMO you will be better not letting them free range whilst you're not there.I realise that fox's are supposed to hunt at night,but,'someone'forgot to tell the foxes this.A lot of foxes will and do hunt in the afternoon,also,it is now september so this years cubs are dispersing to find their territories.A chook would make a very welcome snack .
I also noticed the site that advertised those rubber chips,but don't know anyone who uses it.
As to digging your chicken run,ppl I've chatted to who do keep chooks this way,used to dig the ground out completely once a year,and replace it,i think with sand,and wood chips usually at one end(I think).On a daily basis they 'pooh picked' and raked it.Snifter or Tim will be able to advise you better regarding this.

I do think that you have been unlucky,and that you're not doing something wrong,with all pets,we learn more the longer we have them.Although that is small consolation to you now,it will slightly be trial and error,finding the right way to keep your chooks happy and healthy,what works in some area's or for some ppl will not be right for every chook and it's owners'.
All we can do as 'newbies' (I'm a lot newer than you) is follow the basic guidlines for all chooks,and adapt some of them slightly for our individual circumstances.
As well as picking other ppl's brains - thanks to forums like this
BTW,how is your poorly maran now?Hope she's improving .

 

[girlracer265]

oh so sorry lydia, we have only been keeping since january, so new to this too, we have had a fair few losses as well, 3 within the last week, 1 died of an unknown illness and my dogs escaped be4 i had shut the chooks in this week and they killed 2, i'm considering investing in some electric poultry netting but its quite expensive.
we bought a breeding pair of d'uccles earlier in the year which while in quarantine, developed a respiritory problem but luckily for us an experienced keeper came round and injected them with something and they both recovered so there can be better news too.

 

[Anonymous]

LOL,I think I'm the newest on here girlracer,haven't had mine a week yet-will be me asking for lots of advice over the next few months I expect.

Really sorry that you've had losses as well,especially when it is from other pets that you love as much.I'm very lucky with my 7 dogs,they are being exemplary,apart from my smallest and youngest whippet pup sneaking into the chooks run,then up the ramp,into the house,then the nest box and knicking the eggs :lol: .....little bu****r.My SBT(Staffie) was trying to get the chooks (1 in particular) to play with him,but a slight change to the routines seems to have solved that problem .
What sort of dogs have you got?How many?age etc., I realise that this is a chook forum,but,we could always discuss dogs with chickens in the chit chat bit.

Was the respiratory infection that your d'uccles got mycoplasma? I think that is treatable with an injection of tylan 200 or something,which is prob an antibiotic.I am glad that they recovered,was very good of another poultry keeper to help.I am very fortunate that I have an experienced chook keeper 5 mins away, a poultry vet 20 mins away and ppl on here.

 

[Tim]

I haven't tried those rubber chippings. I have used bark, sand and gravel, all need replacing after a while. Gravel (20mm smooth) tends to get messy and only washes through for a year or so. I tend to just rake now and move my chooks houses around runs but then my setup allows that.

Most people will use chippings of some sort and replace them from time to time. It's important to worm regularly (I'm now a Verm-X convert) when your birds are on the same bit of ground.

Tim

 

[girlracer265]

My dogs are staffies too lydia female in 21/2 and male 2 and he is daft and probably was trying to play but she spends hours stalking the chooks, even when their in their runs.
That was the stuff tylan he injected, and the d'uccles are doing great now, we even bought him some wifelets a few months back ( our pair is now a quartet) so we are looking forwards to lots of eggs next year, one of the lavender pekins has gone broody, so shes sitting on 4 pekin eggs and 4 d'uccle eggs, she's a great mom. we bought her with 3 3day old chicks and they are just coming up to 6 months

 

[snifter]

Just going to mention that the General section is for your off topic convo so feel free to start a pet thread or post your dog pics over there.

In fact I am going to do that now

 

[Anonymous]

chickens do tend to be more worry than you'd think, have you thought about getting a cockerel as the tend to be very protective and go crackers if a fox came in to the run and hopefully scare it away. we seem to have adopted a massive cockerel from next door who quite happily chases cat and my two year old around the garden. or gesse will chase a fox, there like gaurd dogs.
my favorite hen has a runny nose at the moment i am hoping that it's only a cold.
you can buy electric chicken net off ebay a a reasonable price if you bought it a lot long than you need for your run you could extend it on the weekends so they could have more of a free range but safe from foxes.

hope it gets better
kat

 

[Lucylou]

Lydia, my poorly Maran seems to have made a fantastic recovery! She's out of the 'isolation ward' & back in the coup with the others,& putting on weight thank goodness. I'm keeping fingers crossed that she continues like this & none of the others go down with it. I'm sure I will learn more about their various ailments as time goes on.

Thanks for the tip(s) everyone, I will put what I can into practice.
Unfortunately can't get a cockrel as we live in an urban area (on the edge of town/country) I know cockrels can be very protective as my SIL looks after 12 silkies & the cockrel saw off 3 fox attacks.Sadly he couldn't win the last time Mr Fox paid a visit. but she lives in the country.

 

[Anonymous]

Really pleased she's better ,I'm sure she'll carry on now she's started.

I understand how awkward it could be for you to have a cockerel.I live in a rural hamlet,but,when I popped round my neighbours to warn them I was getting chickens,a few of them mentioned to me that the cockerel at the local farm crowing really annoys them.Personally,I have never found his crowing annoying.I wasn't planning on having a cockerel,I wouldn't be abale to raise multidudes of fertile eggs but it would be nice to have something to warn of Reynard.Haven't had one visit yet,hopefully I wont.Will have to deal with it if it does happen.

 

[Tim]

I'm pleased your poorly Marans is better. I love a success story

I'm sorry to say that Cockerels and Geese will also get caught by Mr. (or Mrs) Fox. I have seen first hand quite a few times the carnage a fox has left behind after killing a dozen or more geese in a field. Quite simply he will rip all of their heads off and take one bird to eat. It's not pleasant to see.

I also know of a commercial breeder in Sussex who had a field with literally hundreds of geese free range. If you went in there and got out of the Landrover you would get seriously pecked...I wanted to take photos once and couldn't... a vixen and her cubs got in and killed over 20 geese one night - the farmer apparently shot them before having to kill some of his own geese that were badly tangled in the fence and bleeding caused in the frenzy.

The safest way is to lock your birds up safety at night although foxes will come during the day at times so a good enclosure is the best defence.

I'm really sorry to be so negative but having seen losses caused by foxes over the years I really want to warn you about this...

Tim

 

[Anonymous]

It is lovely to hear she's recovered .It's horrid when someone has a problem and you don't get to hear the outcome.You're left wondering....... .


It is a fox calling during the day that I would worry about,I'm at home to shut my chooks up securely at night.
Also,at night if a fox was causing a problem or frightening the chickens and it alerted my dogs I would go outside and chase it off......the sight of me just out of bed and grumpy would frighten anything lol.

Not sure what I'd do during the day,maybe install electric fencing or something....except I'd want the voltage high enough to fry the fox and kill it,which would be dangerous for my hens and dogs....and illegal.

 

[Tim]

During the day, a fox will hide in a hedge or similar and when a chook is close enough, dash out quickly, grab it and run away - at night, if he gets into a house, he will kill every bird before taking just one to eat. If a chook gets away, he will come back night after night to try to get that bird... this sadly happened to me one winter when I lived in Wales.

You can be lucky for years and not have a visit, then one day out of the blue...

My birds are behind a fence in the field but not electric and a fox could get over but the dog and our presence seems to keep him away.

There's a bit more on foxes here:

Foxes info

Tim

 

[Lucylou]

The Fox got mine between 5.30 & 8.00 a.m one morning. They were in a run which has a 6ft mesh fence on 2 sides, garage on 1 & 6ft fence panels the other. There was no sign of any entry point, we searched every inch & he definately didn't dig under the wire or the gate (we concreted under the gate as I've read how vunerable that part is). We think he must have climbed onto next door's shed & jumped over onto the fence & then jumped down. Its the only possible explanation, even though the gap between the shed & the fence is about a metre he must have got in that way, the garage is just too high & has a pitched roof & there was no damage to the wire.

So if thats how he got in the puzzle is how he got out again with 4 birds, the only evidence left were a few feathers. One of the girls was a big heavy bird, 2 were young 22 weeks so lighter & our little bantum. He must have got in & out 4 times & carried them out. Can't think of any other explanation. How he managed it heaven only knows. It was early summer (June) so I think that's too early for the Vixen to be out hunting with cubs but I suppose that's one poss. Anyway I'm now on the alert every day.

Recently I saw the Fox (who knows there might be more than 1!) We have lights that have sensors & the one by the front door kept coming on & sure enough it was Mr Fox himself. A huge scraggy thing went right past the window, bold as brass. Just have to hope he finds enough to eat elsewhere.

 

[Anonymous]

What a shame Lucylou,foxes are very agile,I don't think a metre jump is too wide for a fox.They are also wily,and,the large scraggy one that you saw casually walk past your window probably is the guilty one.
In june,a vixen most likely would not take her cubs hunting with her,but she would still be looking after them and taking food back for them.When the cubs disperse in september,they are in-experienced and not as skilled.
Unfortunately,if a fox feeds well on your chickens,and,wasn't interrupted the chances of it trying again are quite high.Hopefully, it has been squished on the road.

 

[Tim]

A fox will definately be able to scale a 6ft fence. A neighbour of mine back in Wales had a fox problem with a 6ft high fence and as a temporary measure we actually made the wire loose so when he went to climb it moved - he stopped getting in - just long enough for us to order and install an electrified wire.

Another thing a fox will do is run around the run really quickly, terrifying your hens who will fly off everywhere, damaging their heads / beaks against the wire and if the run is not covered probably fly out and he gets them.

I went out to our old run one night when there was alot of noise one night and there was a thin layer of snow on the ground - there were paw prints everywhere around the run - you litterally couldn't put a 50p piece in between - the ground was covered.

There is some truth in 'the little red hen' book when the fox goes underneath her where she is perched and goes around in a circle, making her topple off her perch as she gets dizzy!

Tim