Chronic Respiratory Disease?

Sorry to write again, but just wanted some more advice please.
Barbie "ex batt" has had a runny nose and sneezing for 10 days. It seemed to be clearing up, but today I noticed the clear (and bubbled) discharge is coming from both nasal passages. She is still perky, eating normal, alert and laying every day. The others are all well and no signs of similar.

Barbie sleeps on the floor of the coop (upstairs, not on the perch) and always has.
4 weeks ago I changed her bedding from dust free sawdust to aubiose. No other changes have been made. The coop is cleaned every single day and the doors left open to "air".

All hens have been wormed with flubenvet.

Considering her symptoms are worse today, as the discharge is now from both nostrils, any idea what it might be? She seems Ok, but I don't like to see her like this and wondered if she was in need of antiobiotics, which I am reluctant to give her unless absolutely necessary, plus it means a visit to a poultry vet. $$$

Just a thought, but do you think I should put a low perch where she normally sleeps in the corner, to discourage her from sitting on the floor? My thoughts are that any wee and poo she does during the night, might be giving off ammonia, despite being cleaned and new aubiose put down there daily. The floor part she sleep on is metal, as it slides out to clean, so cannot be soaked with urine, but the side of the coop is wood, so some might get in there. That's the only thing I can think of.

Barbie is my favourite bird, I know I shouldn't say that, but I really don't like to think she is unwell.

Aubiose is very dusty in my experience, so we only used it in the damp Winters. Sounds like a respiratory irritation, rather than any disease, although it could be inherent in her and triggered by any dust in the environment- a problem we've had repeatedly in the past. Forget the ammonia theory- takes a long time for poo to deteriorate to that stage.

I'd change the bedding to dust extracted wood shavings or even better remove it completely and put down newspaper. Sounds like you may not have enough ventilation through the coop so that needs to be looked at, also check you have no black mould under the roof as that can cause major problems indeed.

This needs to be addressed quickly as the symptoms can get much worse and overtake her ability to cope.

Hi Chris
The coops are only a few months old and very clean, no mould anywhere, dry even in those storms we had before this dry spell. My OH is pedantic about cleanliness.
It's very well ventilated (I assume), as all the bottom part of the pen, which is attached to the coop, has that metal wire around the bottom and sides. There is an air vent inside the actual coop, too. The small door to the coop is left open all night, as the attached pen is fox proof, so air gets through the coop all night.
I am not sure if it is aubiose causing it, but that is the only thing I have changed. I think Marigold mentioned it should be dampened down, so maybe I should have done that? My husband always cleans them out when I am at work, so I will get him to spray it, see if that helps, otherwise back to dust free sawdust again pronto and see if she improves again.

Poor Barbie!
I haven't found aubiose to be dusty myself, but I think Chris' idea of using newspaper on the floor is good. Just wrap up the top sheet as a poo parcel in the morning. If you're worried about her sleeping on the floor, you could try going down after dark when they've roosted and are asleep, and lift her on to the higher perch for the rest of the night. Exbatts, and also new pullets who have never experienced perching in their previous homes, often need to be taught to perch by lifting them on to one for a few nights. Once the perching reflex is established, they generally come to accept it as normal.

As an exbatt, she will have been fully vaccinated against all sorts of diseases, including IB, and won't have come into contact with it from any of your other vaccinated chickens. As your premises hadn't had poultry before, there should be no problem of residual infection she could have picked up from your environment, and she's been with you for quite a while now, so I don't think it's very likely to be that. Your coop is very well ventilated; as Chris says, damp and mouldy conditions in poorly-ventilated coops are a common cause of respiratory infections, but this is more usual in winter when poor ventilation produces a lot of condensation and bacteria get passed around, like in a doctor's waiting room.
At this time of year, when it's been so hot and dusty, she may have an allergic reaction to something, and as we asthmatics all know from our own experience, once this is established all sorts of things can trigger further inflammation. Are you using dry diatomaceous earth in the coop to protect against redmite? If so, I would leave off this, or make it into a slurry and paint it on round the perch ends, as the dust is very irritant and dangerous to chickens and humans alike. What are you using to clean the coop? Apart from changing dirty bedding, I don't really think too much daily cleaning is actually necessary, certainly I don't bother. But if you want to, I would avoid any sprayed detergents which might leave airborne particles, and just use warm water and a rag. Does she like to dustbathe a lot under the bushes? Maybe you might restrict her access to dry dustbaths for a bit?
As she seems well in herself, I would concentrate on trying to cut out all possible sources of inflammation, damp down dusty areas and dry bedding, and observe her breathing for a few days. Keep notes and if possible take dated close-up photos of any discharge, for comparison. Ideally, she should be kept in isolation in case its something infectious, but on the other hand, if it is infectious the others will all have been exposed to it anyway by now. If she goes on getting worse, you will then have some evidence to share with the vet if it gets to that stage.
There's a version of sods law that states 'Children and chickens will always become ill over a weekend..."!

I've just cleaned her nose with tissue and water, got rid of the dust. She's such a happy little thing, she is so good at letting me help her.
I will remove the aubiose today and just use paper, see how it goes. OH has put a very low perch close to the corner where she sleeps, just so she is not on the actual floor. I am sure she used to use the perch when I first got her.
Let's hope it is just an allergy and not anything else. The others don't have any symptoms, thank goodness.

Just back from town and had another read at your replies.
I never realised that diatamaceous earth could be dangerous. I know my Oh puts this around the edges and corners of the coop when he has cleaned out their poo. That could be one of the reasons - dusty inhalation of it...so now I will ensure this is only done once in a while and painted on, as suggested by Marigold. Luckily, he doesn't use any detergents, so isn't that, but I bet he has put too much of the DE in there.

I took some pics last weekend and will attempt to take some more today or tomorrow, as that's a good idea, Marigold.

OH uses dust extracted wood shavings in our coop and puts paper under the perches at night and picks them up in the morning.
We have noticed a few hens being a bit sneezy but otherwise well and just put it down to all the dust everywhere at the moment, since the rain Thursday not noticed one sneezing.
We always get a hen acting up just before we go away, I am sure they know and it's a "if I die when you are away, you only have yourself to blame" needless to say they are fine when we get back.
Like Marigold we make a slurry of the DE and spread around rather than just put the dust everywhere and risk it getting up their noses.
Hope Barbie gets better soon, and we all have favourites, the OH's is our Light Sussex that has survived a prolapse, and various encounters with stroppy hens, fences and the lake

D. Earth is a kind of silica, which dehydrates the mites by its abrasive action on their exoskeletons. If inhaled, it does the same thing to the lungs of people as well as chickens, hence probably carcinogenic as well as irritant.

I sat Barbie on my knee and did a very short video. I hadn't realised that her breathing now sounds a bit croaky, too. Hope the link works. If you copy and paste in your browser, it does work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D9IgdzXBuc

What a good idea, that video. Apart from the snicking noise, she looks OK, doesn't she? Comb bright red and erect, eyes alert, movements active.
Has anyone actually seen a hen with acute bronchitis? I would imagine an infected bird would be looking less lively by now. The snicking noise is very frequent, though - does she do that all the time?
As it's Sunday tomorrow, I expect you'll be observing her for the next 24 hours, and then decide next week whether you want to take her to the vet.

HI Marigold, it has been raining heavily here for the past hour, but now ceased. I nipped out to the coop, as I wanted to check if Barbie was OK. We removed the aubiose and put newspaper down. We also moved the second perch back and added a small and very low perch for Barbie, exactly where she would normally sleep on the floor (to stop her sitting in that place).
I opened up the nestbox and peeped in to discover that Barbie and Cindy were both on the medium height perch

With regard to that crackling noise, that was the first time I have heard her breathe like that, so shall be keeping a close eye (and ear) on her tomorrow. She certainly wasn't like that yesterday. If she showed signs of being ill, she would have already been to the vets.....but I will observe her for another couple of days. Poor thing.

At least now, with a change of bedding, plus the rain removing the dusty atmosphere, I hope things improve rapidly. I can only hope and pray it isn't anything sinister. I do love that bird.

Using DE isn't a huge risk, compared to its usefulness against red mite. Applying it as a slurry, that sticks where you want it (at the ends of the perches mainly) and isn't so airborne is a moderate use. I wouldn't put it in the dust bath.
But, if it's an infection, its mycoplasma which is so common it is like a cold in humans (but bacteria not a virus) - ever present but can get out of hand. I wont mention the dreaded anti-B's but your vet will advise. Saline solution is good for wiping beaks as it doesn't help spread any discharged bacteria back into the airways.
It is easily treatable - the decision is whether you let her fight it herself (with help of course. When that turns out well it is always the best way.) Oh for hindsight!

Hi Rick
Thanks so much for replying.
I realised that yesterday, that for the first time since I got her a few months ago, Barbie did not lay an egg!!I know some hens don't lay every day, particularly as she is older, but I note any change in habit or behaviour. As she always lays her egg before 9.30am and she hasn't been to the nestbox today, either, I assume she may not lay today.
When I let them all out this morning, Barbie was sneezing again, but no nasal discharge, her voice still a little cackly. She is still very alert, eating and drinking well and the first for the tomato treat
I don't want to give unecessary antibiotics. Because the others are OK and Barbie is coping well, I think I will sit and wait another day or two....

Good idea, Tweetiepie. As Hipchick found with Hetty, quite often hens do overcome minor illness, given sensible care - and it sounded as if Hetty was showing more signs of illness than Barbie. So long as a hen seems bright and alert in herself, and is feeding, drinking and pooing normally, then observation is usually the best way to go. Of course this doesn't rule out the vet if things change and she starts looking depressed - but it doesn't sound as if giving it time will be harmful at the moment, and anyway it's Sunday. If she gets really bunged up nose and bad wheezing, and doesn't look her normal cheerful self, then that might indicate a bronchial infection, but as you've removed possible irritants from her home, and it's nice and damp now, she may well just recover naturally.
It's good that the others are normal, that might seem to point to Barbie picking up something that inflamed her throat tract or her nasal passages. A seed or bit of dust stuck somewhere along the line, maybe? In which case we can hope that it will work its way out in a day or so. It's good that she's not laying, will give her the strength to recover that would have gone into making an egg.

I took a new video this morning. It's been raining quite hard today, so they look a bit bedraggled.

Barbie is the one with the white tipped tail who is not camera shy. 10 They were all begging for a cherry tomato at the conservatory door. Note the destroyed hosta plant!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEmShXiQGG8

All in all, she looks pretty happy, despite the rain.

I didn’t notice any signs of her making that snicking noise, has she stopped doing that? She looks perfectly normal to me, eyes and nose clean from what I can see.

HI Marigold
I can't hear that croaky noise now, either. Well spotted. Also, I hadn't realised that she laid an egg early this morning. The reason I hadn't discovered it, was due to Miss Muffet being sat on the nest laying hers when I looked in at 7.30am. Ten minutes ago I popped the door open and saw 3 eggs in the nest. Cindy then promptly jumped in the nest desperate to lay hers! It's like a carry on film here in a morning...they have 6 large nest boxes and they all have to lay their eggs in one box! 07

Weather is cool today and raining on and off, so at least it isn't dusty.

I really appreciate having all of you on this forum. If I hadn't discovered this forum, I would have already taken her to the vets and wasted a load of money for nothing, probably worrying unneccessarily. Always good to get advice from real people with real experience, rather than vets with no clue about poultry.

Sounds all good, then, even down to the egg!
It's the same with all species, isn't it - dogs, cats, children, (especially babies!) we're all worried about misdiagnosing our own, especially now we have Dr. Google to help! I've found friends on here are invaluable when I want to check something out, and I think your idea of videoing Barbie and putting the clip on Youtube was just brilliant - I don't think anyone has done that before, and it told so much more than a still photo would have done. We could see how she was moving and hear her breathing etc.
We all want to avoid the vet, of course, -it's just a case of sensing when it will probably do no harm to let nature take its course, or knowing when the case is hopeless anyway, and when a proper diagnosis is needed when in doubt. Sometimes hens just drop down dead for no apparent reason - like the pullet I had for a few weeks in the Spring that I found dead in the coop one morning. None of us on here are vets, and even if we were, there's no substitute for actually seeing and handling a bird, - though Youtube is a good second best!
As it says at the top of the page in this section;
"Please remember the advice offered by people should not constitute a diagnosis and does not replace the advice of a qualified vet."
They're not all useless!

Hi Tweetypie, sorry to hear Barbie's unwell. On the plus side it seems like she's still quite active, and eating and drinking well, which are all good signs. One thing that became apparent to me when Hetty was poorly, was how she isolated herself from all the others, and her reluctance to walk around. It also appeared she had been knocked down the pecking order, as she would get pecked at by all the other girls, and was waiting until last to go in the coop at night, and a reluctance to come out in the morning. So I'd say Barbie is showing all good signs really, and maybe it is something in the nasal passage causing an irritation.

Hi all

Yes she does seem OK in herself, so maybe it is some irritant in her nasal package as Marigold and you suggested.

I could not believe my eyes tonight... I always leave them to go into their coops, bearing in mind I have two separate coops at either end of the attached pen and two little staircases up to their "bedrooms".

Tonight, I saw Cindy stood in the dark, in the door way of her coop she shares with Barbie. I picked her up and put her inside the coop and looked in to discover that Barbie wasn't there. I opened the coop where Mabel and Miss Muffet sleep and discovered Barbie sat in the nestbox, like Queen Elizabethe II sat on her throne. :lol: Because Barbie sleeps on the floor in her own coop, I got OH to make her a low perch, which she did use last night, but obviously it wasn't good enough for her. She likes comfort :roll:

I don't like the thought of Cindy being alone, so will have to think of something else for Queen Barbie. Why she doesn't sit in her own nestbox, I don't know. These hens do make me laugh and I know I pander to them, but I need to know they are cosy and warm.