Baytril - new rules?

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Baytril - new rules?

Postby pennyblack chooks » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:25 pm

Belle had a bumblefoot a couple of months ago and I am still vet wrapping her claw to prevent a new wound and to allow the small 'cavity' to 'come back down' to normal claw level (sorry if that isn't a good explanation) I was given the choice of baytril or cephacare to treat her for 7 days to aid the healing process.

Having used Baytril for Lizzie ( my almot 5 year old hybrid hen that had been diagnosed with an infection in the summer , although when I took her back when it came back again a couple of months later my chicken vet said it was egg peritonitis and so I had her gently PTS then) when it came to Belle I said Baytril please.

Only to be told that the rules for using Baytril had changed (though I am not sure when they changed) and that because it is used in human medicine for something to do with (I think) immune issues, it now should not be used at all in egg laying chickens and most definitely not in chickens whose eggs are going to be given away or sold because of the baytril effect in those eggs. When I asked if this was for a limited number of days (ie during treatment and for 7 days etc after) I was told no - its forever, once the chciken has had baytril even just once. The only way you can even give such eggs away apparently now is by making sure prospective consumers of your gifts are told about the Baytril.

Now I have only used Baytril this year for Lizzie who had stopped laying anyway, and also this summer for Bert (my old cockerel who I tried it with to help him through a secondary infection he had when he was near the end of his natural span) so this was not an issue for me, until I needed something for Belle earlier this winter.

I don't doubt my vet, though I do doubt my memory of exactly all the details she told me at that time. So I wondered if anyone can confirm this?

If it has changed from a treatment that was used for birds under the cascade rules (even though I know it was not designated an avian medicine) with egg withdrawal etc, why has it suddenly changed?
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Re: Baytril - new rules?

Postby chrismahon » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:26 pm

I'm not aware of this PBC. Could spell disaster for us as it is the only antibiotic we could afford at the moment. Will be ringing the vet about this.

Reason it may have changed is to stop people becoming allergic to it; if a derivative of Baytril is going to be used. A lot of people are allergic to penicillin and some to all the alternatives as well.
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Re: Baytril - new rules?

Postby foxy » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:40 pm

My understanding is Baytril is now not licensed by the FDA (US) for use in poultry, basically because of evidence to support the fact that resistance is growing to this group of antibiotics.These are used to treat certain diseases which are common to the human species and can be carried by poultry ( Campylobacter being a major cause of concern)

Antibiotic resistance is becoming a real concern as new strains of "super bacteria" are evolving. Novel antibiotics are not being developed in time and a lot of older antibiotics are increasingly becoming ineffective against these new strains.

With the increase in poultry for consumption and growth in the free range market, strategies are in place to try and reduce the use of antibiotic therapy for use and this thinking is also being applied to backyard keepers.

This is also why "ad hoc" use of antibiotics or treating for a few days without finishing a course ultimately may be making a rod for our own backs. :(
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Re: Baytril - new rules?

Postby Marigold » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:54 am

Will I sound really hard and uncaring if I suggest that, in many (most?) cases, it's really best to cull a sick chicken rather than treat with antibiotics? Yes we all get fond of them, they are our pride and joy, but on poultry forums I so often read long threads where some elderly or sick bird has been given long courses of various antibiotics, often to no avail. With chickens as well as any other species, length of life isn't the same as quality of life, and i sometimes feel we tend to hang on in there hoping for a miracle which isn't going to come, and giving treatment which may be counterproductive to their species as well as our own.
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Re: Baytril - new rules?

Postby mollteaser » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:52 am

I'm afraid I agree to a certain extent. On another forum I read about a hen having a hormone implant, and various other treatments, costing £2000:eek: I'm on a fairly low wage, and couldn't afford this. I'm.also not sure that I agree with prolonging the life of sick/in pain animals. I've had to hold my tongue with my mum, who adopted a rescue dog, which is a stupid cross of a pointer and staffordshire bt. (apparently its done to try to make huge muscle dogs) The bones are too light to support the muscles, and his back legs have just required two ops, to graft and repair the joints/tendons etc. This cost hundreds even with the insurance. Poor dog can't be let off the lead for a year...and isn't supposed to run again....
Sorry I'm ranting:oops: but I think animals need respecting, not keeping alive for our selfish needs.
Sorry for going off topic ...I need another cuppa and more sleep! Sorry;)
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Re: Baytril - new rules?

Postby podstable » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:11 am

Like Foxy says --it is not licensed for poultry use -so,it has NOT been proven safe to eat eggs from birds treated with this . This does not just relate to whilst on treatment or a short period after but for the LIFE of the bird .This is a another serious consideration if you wish to continue eating eggs from your birds!!!! Yet another reason not to just give your birds some spare anti -biotics without knowing what 'bug' they are suffering from and its particular sensitivities to antibiotics. Many people seem to treat infections with Baytril,Tylan :evil: etc without any idea what they are treating or if that is indeed the correct antibiotic,in many cases a cheap ,appropriate antibiotic such as Amoxycillin may be far more appropriate !Asking your vet may just be a good idea ! At least this is my understanding of it! Ros
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Re: Baytril - new rules?

Postby VALBURNHAM » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:31 am

If this is now the case with Baytril what happens about the hens that were previously treated when these rules did not apply. Three years ago when I first had hens I took my lovely dorking hen to the vets with a bad resp problem. He said he did not think she would make it as her temp was so high he also said she would never make a good hen as this problem would probably reoccur if she made it in the first place. He gave me baytril with instructions not the eat the eggs for eight days. My lovely dorking hen is still alive today has laid eggs every day throughout the summer months and never had a day of sickness since. I have in all that time eaten the eggs and given her eggs to neighbours. So by this ruling presumably I should now start destroying her eggs.
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Re: Baytril - new rules?

Postby pennyblack chooks » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:05 am

Marigold wrote:Will I sound really hard and uncaring if I suggest that, in many (most?) cases, it's really best to cull a sick chicken rather than treat with antibiotics? Yes we all get fond of them, they are our pride and joy, but on poultry forums I so often read long threads where some elderly or sick bird has been given long courses of various antibiotics, often to no avail. With chickens as well as any other species, length of life isn't the same as quality of life, and i sometimes feel we tend to hang on in there hoping for a miracle which isn't going to come, and giving treatment which may be counterproductive to their species as well as our own.
Now shoot me down, everybody!


No I agree with you That is why I let Lizzie go as soon as I knew what it was (it was a farm vet that had told me a general infection) from the chicken vet and although I have lost other chooks at around 3 years old to this, with Lizzie it seemed diferent and as i say she was almost 5 years old and had stopped laying so i was prepared to belive the farm vet that was able to see her the first time i took her in. With Bert he came with shortened toes (one on each claw) when I rehomed him and he had a had a good long life with us but in the end his gait affected his health and I tried to restore his quality of life with the vets advice and input but when I went back again and discussed it I made the decision that it wasn't enough to satisfy me that he was having the quality of life I want for my hens and with autumn coming I had him gently PTS too. I held them for the vet.

I think it is about respect for their needs and quality of life as chickens.

SoI havn't misunderstood my vet then! I went with ceohacare obviously for Belle's bumblefoot.
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Re: Baytril - new rules?

Postby podstable » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:34 pm

I dont think its any ' new rule' - I THINK this has always been so???? If you are concerned Its best to check with your though. Ros
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Re: Baytril - new rules?

Postby chrismahon » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:00 pm

It's only a problem if you are going to sell the eggs or eat the bird. It's also a problem if you are putting your sentiment over the quality of life of the bird. But for a one-off infection for a 'pet' or a breeding bird I don't see a problem. One of our Orpington hens had a bad respiratory problem and was treated with Baytril. She recovered, lays well and has given us many chicks. When she does get chesty now and again, as the vet said she woyld be prone to it, a bit of tlc and plenty of ventillation and she's fine -she won't be getting any more Baytril. Annie Bllack Rock had an abdominal infection and was treated, the next one she fought off on her own. She is now getting them regularly but keeps fighting and is happy with it -no more Baytril though. When her quality of life looks bad she goes.
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