A pity my Poppy couldn't be there!

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Marigold
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A pity my Poppy couldn't be there!

Post by Marigold » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:01 pm

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rick
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Re: A pity my Poppy couldn't be there!

Post by rick » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:11 pm

I like the pee station!
Its sad! I wish we didn't have to go but after throwing a wobbly at the party and generally pulling a Loki stunt it would be lame to not go. At the same time, if we didn't, well that would take a pretty big movement of common sense that couldn't be bad.
I have friends that voted both ways - Yes?, No? - What a stupid question!!!
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LadyA
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Re: A pity my Poppy couldn't be there!

Post by LadyA » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:28 pm

I love the "Borders against borders" !
Lead me not into temptation. I can find the way myself!
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rick
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Re: A pity my Poppy couldn't be there!

Post by rick » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:04 am

Anything that makes us less divided with with the Whole World - because we kind of need that right now! (for ecology if nothing else) - but geographically we are in the Eurasian sub-continent, maybe?
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Hen-Gen
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Re: A pity my Poppy couldn't be there!

Post by Hen-Gen » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:49 am

We’ll have to agree to differ on that big question then!
But the thing that really p****s me off is this demand for a “people’s vote”. What was the last one then? A chimpanzees vote? A cauliflowers vote?
Show me a remoaner and I’ll show you a latent fascist. It’s called democracy. Oh, we don’t like the way you voted in a free and fair referendum so we’ll hold it again until you give us the chattering classes our preferred option.
Religion and politics huh?
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Re: A pity my Poppy couldn't be there!

Post by valeriebutterley » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:05 pm

Totally agree with you, Hen-Gen, what about true democracy? The general public voted to leave, so stop bu------g about and get on with it Theresa and Co.
Take us away from Brussels and straight cucumbers, - honestly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Marigold
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Re: A pity my Poppy couldn't be there!

Post by Marigold » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:14 pm

The referendum was never framed as legally binding on the Government, it was merely advisory. The Government didn't/ doesn't have to pursue it if they consider it not to be in the best national interests of the U.K.
The narrow Leave result has been proven to be influenced by lies about the future benefits of being out of the EU, and by undisclosed overspend on the Leave campaign, which has been legally investigated.
The result was also influenced by the votes of many older people, whereas the consequences of leaving will be felt for the rest of their lives by younger people. The number of people who were too young to vote in 2016 but could now do so, is greater than the number of older people who have since died. So if the referendum were re-run tomorrow, this demographic change would in itself probably change the result.
I find the analogy of buying a house quite compelling. You see a house you might like and put in an offer, which is accepted. You then have a survey done, which reveals all sorts of defects you hadn't realised, some of which appear insoluble. You are then going to need the right to think again about the purchase, aren't you? Especially if the dodgy estate agent has been persuading you to buy it, with false promises that even he now says aren't going to happen.

All over the country, this year, towns and villages are remembering the end of the First World War, and children are being taught that it must never happen again. My own family was torn apart when my father was killed in WW2, but despite that, my mother taught me that not all Germans were bad people, just ordinary people doing what their government told them to, just as my father was.
I believe that, whatever its faults, the E.U. has been a force for good within my lifetime, has been a remarkable union of countries previously at war with each other, and has demonstrated the advantages of united action in many fields, cultural, military, medical, environmental, and educational, to name but a few. It seems terrible to me to want to break away from contributing to this, to isolate ourselves from our nearest neighbours, in ways which now even the Goverment admits are going to make us poorer, less able to travel freely, and more inclined to suspicion and antagonism against those who should be our greatest allies and source of economic strength. Yes the E.U. has many faults, but you can only help to improve and reform a club if you're one of its members and sharing its benefits.

I think the Government, in the sense of the ruling Tory party, is obviously running scared about allowing a second referendum, because if it advised abandoning Brexit, there would be a general election, which they would probably lose. Never mind all the thousands of ordinary people whose jobs would be at risk if Brexit goes through, in whatever form it takes.
And no, I'm not a member of the Labour Party. I used to be, but I resigned this summer, over Corbyn's handling of the Jewish controversy. I have no opinion on whether the Party itself is actually racist, I don't imagine it is, but I thought his failure to deal with the issue promptly an decisively indicated that he would be unable to manage the dilemmas of being P.M. But at least the Labour Party is running on a programme of social change and issues to benefit the lives of ordinary people, who seem to have been largely forgotten in the scramble to Brexit - at whatever cost.


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Hen-Gen
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Re: A pity my Poppy couldn't be there!

Post by Hen-Gen » Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:36 pm

Wow. Thats both detailed and spoken with commitment. I like to think I could repudiate every point you make except for the first one which is factually correct. The referendum was advisory rather than legally binding. However I think it would be a bad day for democracy if having sounded out public opinion the government then chose to do the opposite.

I’ve never forgotten at grammar school when a referendum was taken, organised by the head, on whether we should be taught rugby or football. The vote was overwhelmingly for football. The next day the head at assembly announced that irrespective of our wishes it was going to be rugby. Many of us were incredulous at this and swore never to support a lack of democracy again.
Of course the head could have argued that our votes were based upon poor knowledge of the issues and lack of thought about long term outcomes.
Does that argument sound familiar?
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Marigold
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Re: A pity my Poppy couldn't be there!

Post by Marigold » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:05 pm

I agree with you that since the result of the referendum was to leave, the government was then obliged to explore the options on behalf of the country. Even though 'the government' at that point consisted mainly of those who had advised and argued for Remain in the campaign, there being apparently no possibility of forming a credible Cabinet from those who had argued all along for Leave. This apparent switch of belief by May and Co. was astounding to me, but I just hoped they were gritting their teeth and getting on with it in the best interest of democracy and stable government. Actually changing their beliefs within 24 hours of the result would appear to me to be like politics in Orwell's '1984.'

When things got a bit sticky, May then called a General Election, in contravention of the 5-year norm for Parliamentary terms, presumably because she was using the other reason for an early end to a government, i.e, a national crisis. This was a gross misjudgement; she was so out of touch with the mood of the country that she finished up with an even more divided minority government, reliant on millions of pounds of bribes to the DUP to prop it up.

However, in our democracy, when there is a national crisis or the term of office is up, the electorate can vote for change. If this were not so, we would be living in a dictatorship. Since there are now powerful reasons for allowing people to express their views, I think it would be democratic, indeed necessary, to allow the country to consider the actual deal on offer, its advantages and disadvantages, which nobody knew about two years ago. If the vote was then to Leave, the Government would have democratic support for their plans. If it was to Remain, then the people would again have spoken. Either way, the Government would then know the informed view of the electorate and could act accordingly.
What are they afraid of? Changing one's mind is not a weakness, if based on fuller understanding.
Margaid
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Re: A pity my Poppy couldn't be there!

Post by Margaid » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:07 pm

The one simple point that has bothered me from the announcement of the referendum result; why was Cameron so out of touch that he was convinced he would win to the extent of having no plans in place for Brexit?
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